(Hauntings) Chris Woodyard ”Haunted Ohio & The ABCs of Victorian Death” pt. 2

[00:00:00] From the darkest reaches of space, to the deepest corners of your mind, your mind. Welcome to From The Void.

[00:00:18] Welcome to From The Void. I'm your host John Williamson and we're back with Part 2 in the final episode in season 4.

[00:00:25] This is the second part of my interview with author Chris Woodyard. Chris is the author of the Haunted Ohio Book Series, but she's also written a number of other books about all sorts of other spooky things.

[00:00:37] She is currently working on various nonfiction subjects, several mystery series, fictional horror stories and some historical novels. She's quite busy.

[00:00:46] Her most recent nonfiction books include the Victorian Book of the Dead and the Ghost War Black, Gassley Tales from the Past.

[00:00:53] So check out her social media links that will be in the show notes. You can also connect to us on social media.

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[00:01:22] So thank you so much for listening to this season from the void. Really appreciate your support.

[00:01:27] We will be back before too long with season five as always bringing you all sorts of new subjects and guests and we'll always keep it interesting.

[00:01:37] So thanks so much for listening without further ado, this is part two of my interview with the legendary author Chris Woodyard.

[00:01:44] You've been listening to From the Void.

[00:01:52] Yeah, it's very interesting.

[00:02:01] What are the terms that pops up that I think we should probably define as 14 and where that term comes from and what does it mean?

[00:02:11] I think the question is, what is the name of the story and yes Charles Fort was a collector of weird stories not just ghosts but things like fish falling out of the sky or rains of blood or all kinds of mystery animals.

[00:02:29] This whole life adult life making little notes on cards like the British library and then he published these books.

[00:02:39] I think low is one of them with an exclamation point.

[00:02:44] He talks about UFOs. He invented the word teleportation.

[00:02:48] So he was a very early paranormal reporter. I won't say he was an investigator because I don't know that he actually went out and looked at places, but he did write there was a fish fall in Virginia and they wrote to the editor of the paper asking for more details and they published his letter in the paper.

[00:03:13] So he's one of the earliest not the earliest, but he's an early adopter of I'm not sure even what you would call it because it is so wide ranging.

[00:03:28] It is just weird, weird stuff.

[00:03:32] Yeah, very interesting.

[00:03:35] There's some humorous tales in your books which I thought was rather funny including some of men embalmed in booze.

[00:03:47] And the second one specifically the one about the man in the casque of rum.

[00:03:52] I found it to be the most entertaining and rather disgusting, but I'll let you tell the story.

[00:03:59] I'm trying to remember is that in one of my Victorian book of the dead.

[00:04:04] Yeah, yeah, okay.

[00:04:06] Oh sure.

[00:04:08] Pack in ham.

[00:04:09] While you're looking, let me read this quote from there was some of the folks that knew him described him as his body was almost he was quite a drinker.

[00:04:21] It sounds like and they say his body was almost ready for spontaneous combustion before his death, which I thought was hilarious.

[00:04:29] And then and yet none ever saw him too much intoxicated to attend to business and to talk sensibly on any and all subjects, which is, which is hilarious.

[00:04:38] So obviously his friends were like this guy was constantly drinking and but he could get his business study get his work done, which is good.

[00:04:45] So I thought that was.

[00:04:49] I'm trying to find him.

[00:04:51] Oh, yes, he's packing him preserved in rum.

[00:04:55] Yes.

[00:04:56] This was from Pennsylvania.

[00:04:58] Sometimes when somebody died at sea, they would actually pack them in rum and I believe Nelson, Lord Nelson's body was put in a casque and brought back and he was taken out of the casque and put in a coffin and properly buried.

[00:05:12] But apparently, let's see.

[00:05:17] I can't think of the name of the man but he sponsored a children's book prize and he died at sea was packed in the rum barrel or the liquor barrel and they just buried the barrel because he was too decomposed.

[00:05:34] It really, it wasn't right.

[00:05:37] Yeah.

[00:05:38] But this was a general Edward Pakenum who commanded the British and the attack in New Orleans on the War of 1812.

[00:05:47] And he his grave has been found.

[00:05:50] The general's body was said to have been placed in a casque of rum and sent to England.

[00:05:54] On its arrival there, it was through mistake not even open but shipped again this time to Charleston reaching the city.

[00:06:01] It was sent to McMillan who kept a general stock of groceries and liquor as you can see where this is going with it.

[00:06:08] There, a spigot was placed in the barrel and the boys who'd returned from the war would congregate around the store, take large potations of the good old Jamaican rum and tell of their exploits in the war.

[00:06:20] After the rum was exhausted, the head of the casque was knocked out and the body of a man was found therein.

[00:06:28] They identified him as general packing him and he was finally put in a coffin and buried near the store where they'd drunk the rum.

[00:06:39] So bad.

[00:06:41] A casque floating down the river and it had wine in it so they started tapping it and drinking it and then they opened up the rest of it and there's a body.

[00:06:54] Spides don't get sick you know.

[00:06:58] Disgusting.

[00:07:01] Oh man, talk about some of the other traditions too because I think along with the Victorian era they had some very specific to that time period, some very specific things and that they did in regards to shrouds and I believe they're called crape crapes.

[00:07:18] Yeah, crape was the morning fabric. It was kind of a crinkly black fabric.

[00:07:25] We put it through a roller and it had a sort of a speckled pattern on it. It was very scratchy.

[00:07:30] It smelled like death apparently.

[00:07:34] They used supposedly toxic chemicals to keep the prep you know to process it and doctors railed against it and said you're inhaling poisonous things when you were avail.

[00:07:46] It didn't stop people because etiquette said if you're a widow, you have to wear a veil.

[00:07:52] It's just the proper thing to do to show the proper respect for the dead and crape was used to trim on it was used as trim on dresses and things like that.

[00:08:03] It also was hung on the door to announce a death so if you saw a streamer or a scarf of crape hanging from a door knob, you knew that was a bereaved household.

[00:08:14] People used to do this for fun. They would hang a piece of crape on somebody's door and run away and then people would start getting calls saying who's dead? Who's dead?

[00:08:27] It was a very shocking thing. I can't think of anything in modern life that would scare us as much as seeing the scarf of black crape fluttering from a door but it was quite an emotional event for people to see this.

[00:08:43] There are also wonderful stories about people seeing a crape on the door but it's not there. It's a ghostly crape that's predicting that it's going to be a death in the house next.

[00:08:55] Wow. Yeah, kind of continue on in some of the tales. What are some more of the unusual tales that you encountered when researching this?

[00:09:07] I saw some where corpses, tales of corpses sitting up in the nature.

[00:09:14] Oh my goodness. One of the creepiest ones is that you did not want cats at a wake because they were trying to chew on the corpse.

[00:09:25] There's a really ghastly one where it was winter and the corpse was nearly frozen. This was an unheated room and the watchers suddenly see the shroud stirrer.

[00:09:36] They're like, oh my god what's going on? They finally had the courage to pull the shroud back and there was a big black cat chewing on the corpse.

[00:09:46] There was another one where they started the wake and they kept the window a jar just a little bit.

[00:09:54] This whole flock of cats started clawing at the window trying to get in and howling and yowling just desperate to get in and they had to beat some of them to death to keep them away from mutilating the corpse.

[00:10:09] Wow. Also if you had a cat jump over the corpse that person would become a vampire. That was one of the beliefs.

[00:10:19] Yeah, got to keep that from happening.

[00:10:22] Keep the cats out of the funeral home.

[00:10:24] Yes.

[00:10:26] What are some of your favorite stories from those that era I should say?

[00:10:34] Oh my. That's spoiled for choice here.

[00:10:39] Oh, one of the favorites and this isn't really a ghost thing but it's more of a 40 in kind of a story and I know that Charles Fort reported on some of these the faces in the windows.

[00:10:51] You would have someone die and a few days later or almost immediately you would see their face etched on the window.

[00:10:59] And sometimes there was a story that oh, they used to sit there during a lightning storm and the lightning photographed it onto the glass.

[00:11:09] And the thing about these window pictures was that you'd wash them and wash them and it would only make it brighter.

[00:11:16] You could only see them from the outside. You could never see them from the inside.

[00:11:21] And it was always a picture of a dead person.

[00:11:24] So I'm not sure what to think of that we don't have any surviving examples of this but they were a huge...

[00:11:33] I hesitate to call it a fad but they were a huge theme in the 1870s in particular.

[00:11:41] They continue on. I mean, I've got other examples.

[00:11:44] I've collected probably 100 or more of these kinds of stories but I'm just fascinated by what could have actually made this image appear.

[00:11:54] They called them lightning daguerreotypes sometimes.

[00:11:59] Yeah, that is interesting because you do see certain trends that fall out of favor over time.

[00:12:06] During the spiritualist period of time when that was all the rage and having sances and things of that nature,

[00:12:15] you see a great deal of emphasis placed on like ectoplasm and ectoplasm of the photographs.

[00:12:21] And not really something you see much anymore but very prevalent during that time period.

[00:12:27] What's interesting to me is now in the spiritualist golden age,

[00:12:32] you had people tipping tables and levitating tables, people still do that today which I find an extremely interesting continuance

[00:12:44] of the tradition.

[00:12:47] You're right, we don't have ectoplasm possibly because it's been discovered it was phosphorescent cheesecloth or egg whites.

[00:12:54] That was another one.

[00:12:56] And people were... the mediums were regurgitating this.

[00:13:00] They were searched physically including cavity searches before they went into be studied by parapsychologists

[00:13:11] but they would have things that they would actually regurgitate.

[00:13:16] So, unsavory.

[00:13:19] Yeah.

[00:13:21] Interesting.

[00:13:23] Yeah, it's a fascinating time period because you had folks who were great believers on one hand

[00:13:30] and like one of the more famous individuals of Sarathir Cohn and Doyle

[00:13:34] who was very interested in the world of spiritualism.

[00:13:38] And then on the other side, you had like Harry Houdini who spent a great deal of the latter part of his career sort of debunking

[00:13:45] the individuals who were kind of going around and holding sances and making these great claims.

[00:13:53] There are wonderful stories of how the mediums did these things.

[00:14:00] What kind of machines or objects or masks they used to recreate spirits.

[00:14:09] And it's always sad to me to hear about saying someone saying,

[00:14:13] well yes I saw my mother walking out of the cabinet and yet it couldn't possibly have been

[00:14:19] and someone jumps up and grabs the medium in situ and they realize that's who it is.

[00:14:25] But what were they seeing? Were they just so longing to see their dead relative that they actually saw something.

[00:14:33] There was the mediums used what was called the blue book.

[00:14:39] They would sometimes travel from city to city and the blue book would have information on this person lost a son,

[00:14:46] his name was Richard, he liked to sail, he did this and the other thing.

[00:14:53] And all these details that you could then use to impress these people because they would say,

[00:14:58] this medium has never been to our house.

[00:15:01] They don't know who we are and they had all this information about our dead son.

[00:15:06] So there were all kinds and they would make sort of cynical little notes like good for a lot of donations.

[00:15:14] Wow.

[00:15:15] So kind of sad there and there were warehouses that had inflatable spirits that you could make run along the floor and then pop up.

[00:15:27] A rather naughty story had a woman who said that she was manifesting someone's infant who had died.

[00:15:36] It was her bare breast that they were feeling in the dark.

[00:15:41] I don't know like a baby's head because she was rather bucksome.

[00:15:45] Wow.

[00:15:46] Yes.

[00:15:47] Great to the links, the which they will go.

[00:15:49] Yes.

[00:15:50] Interesting.

[00:15:51] Well and it kind of I would imagine it would it was a rather frustrating time for anyone who would claim that they had actual abilities

[00:16:01] because you have these these kind artists out there who are clearly mudding the waters and making it much more difficult to take this,

[00:16:10] you know, this type of thing seriously.

[00:16:12] Yes.

[00:16:14] I'm trying to remember.

[00:16:16] I mean, I've read a good deal of spiritualist literature and people have autobiographies about, you know,

[00:16:22] how they started feeling the spirits and their spirit guides and how sincere they are about it all.

[00:16:28] And it's difficult to tell whether this is just another con job to display how sincere they are or whether they truly believed that they had these abilities.

[00:16:41] It's really quite difficult to tell.

[00:16:44] Yeah, even the some of the more famous that I'm trying to remember their name now it's escaping me the sisters.

[00:16:51] Fox sisters, yes.

[00:16:53] Yeah, even later in life I think one one you know said no that you know we were really just kind artists essentially and then recanted later.

[00:17:03] And you know so there's even some confusion there in terms of you know whether or not they were legit or not.

[00:17:11] Yes.

[00:17:12] And was that okay we're going to recant now because we're under pressure.

[00:17:17] We'll say we were just snapping our toe joints and that'll get in the newspaper.

[00:17:22] And then we'll recant and then people will come to us again it's is it about publicity you know keeping the story alive.

[00:17:30] It's really hard to tell another married supposedly married a very famous Arctic explorer Elijah Cain.

[00:17:38] And when he died or disappeared in the Arctic his family disowned her would not admit they had been married.

[00:17:48] So they had a kind of a rough rough life after after getting all the limelight.

[00:17:55] Yeah, very very interesting.

[00:17:58] So what you know what sorts of things are you working on these days?

[00:18:02] I'm mostly doing the Victorian death kinds of things.

[00:18:07] I've just got a new book out called A is for arsenic and ABC of Victorian death.

[00:18:14] I had done the Victorian book of the dead which had more unusual.

[00:18:20] I didn't want to just do the standard. Oh, here's how Queen Victoria did it.

[00:18:25] I wanted what the man in the street was thinking about morning.

[00:18:30] And even after I did that people were asking me relatively what I thought were very basic questions you know why Cray what's half morning.

[00:18:38] And I thought oh, I not everybody lives in the 19th century.

[00:18:42] I guess I better define these things so you know I've defined I've explained about arsenic and beer and B I E R where the coffin lies.

[00:18:52] Cray death tokens involving all kinds of just basic information and it's all done with 19th century and 20 early 20th century sources.

[00:19:03] And we have the most wonderful illustrations by landess Blair.

[00:19:08] It very gory ask very gothic.

[00:19:11] I'm just in love with the illustration so I hope people will enjoy this and get something new out of it anybody who's

[00:19:19] who likes historic novels may get some information about terms that they've not known about or haven't understood.

[00:19:28] Yeah, it was very very educational things that I was not familiar with you know and it's always interesting from a historical perspective to see how our approach to death

[00:19:39] in the aftermath of a loved one dying has changed over the years you know and some of the things that were traditions then that are no longer traditions now and vice versa.

[00:19:49] So it's very interesting to see how our outlook on death has changed over the centuries.

[00:19:54] I feel kind of bad that we've gotten away from a public symbol of mourning not that I want people to walk around draped in Cray veils because that really was kind of unpleasant and women report.

[00:20:05] You know yeah I got a long Cray veil and everybody was stepping on it in the bus and ripping my bonnet off my head.

[00:20:13] But you know I had a friend whose husband died very suddenly and she had to go to the hardware store about a week after he died and the hardware guy was like oh turn that frown upside down it can't be that bad.

[00:20:29] And it's like yes, yes it could be that bad.

[00:20:33] And if we had some kind of a symbol to identify when someone is bereaved maybe I mean there's always going to be insensitive people but you know maybe people would think before they speak like that because when you went out dressed in Cray ve from head to toe everybody knew they needed to treat you with consideration.

[00:20:53] You were not to be harassed, we'll take care of you first at the store. We know you don't want to be out here.

[00:21:01] We're so sorry for your loss but you know we have black arm bands for special occasions and famous people but it would be nice to have some kind of a symbol that we could universally recognize when someone's been bereaved because it is such a terribly trying time.

[00:21:21] Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree and I think you know also the period of time that we allow for other students is just ridiculous.

[00:21:33] Yes.

[00:21:34] And I wonder in the Victorian era was there a specific timeframe designated to the grieving process or was it sort of up to the individual?

[00:21:45] It was generally set by the etiquette books or whichever etiquette book you consulted and it varied over the years but in general if you were a widow it was a year, year in a day might be two years.

[00:21:57] For this was what was interesting was for children if your child died under age six months sometimes you didn't mourn or you were not supposed to mourn publicly.

[00:22:10] If they were over that then okay you get six months so there was a lot of variety if your aunt died maybe it would be three months maybe it would be six months and each of them had sort of a different stage you were all black with crape in the first year if you were a widow then you could take the crape off and just wear black for the next year or six months and then you'd go into gray or purple or move.

[00:22:35] Just sort of easing back into colors because they thought it was too shocking for you to suddenly not be grieving and go back into regular clothing so yeah the time varied and today of course I mean you can barely get bereavement leave a week.

[00:22:54] It's really disgraceful and people feel pressured to get over it oh well I'm doing this wrong I'm still sad after six months no no it's indefinite and you never know when it's going to hit.

[00:23:12] Yeah that's very true I mean it's there are some things that we could probably learn from the previous generations in terms of allowing people that space to decide when they're ready and you're right I think having some sort of you know item or some way of identifying that you are someone who is going through grief might help others to be a little more sensitive to the situation at your end.

[00:23:40] And you know yeah that's that is very interesting yeah I feel the same way about just in terms of the way that we approach grief now with you know all you have to do like you said is look at the amount of bereavement leave that most companies provide it's like there's no way that someone you know a parent or a child that you are mentally ready to go back to a workforce after week two weeks whatever.

[00:24:07] Exactly yes it's ridiculous yeah yes but I don't know what we can do about it in terms of the way our businesses are currently set up yeah.

[00:24:18] Very true and to be fair the Victorian woman was not out in the workplace generally so she had I won't say the leisure but she could stay home and grieve and in private if she needed to.

[00:24:36] Although you still had your household duties but you didn't have a job where you had to show up and men in the Victorian time had much more leeway they might have to wear a black band they might wear a headband on their hat happened.

[00:24:53] Of crape or bomb scene but they really were not trampled the way the women were.

[00:25:01] Interesting yeah things things to think about in current contacts for sure so.

[00:25:10] Where can people go to stamp on top of everything that you're working on and get copies of your books that you already have out and all that good stuff well the books are online and usual venues and I have a Victorian the Victorian book of the dead Facebook page where people can contact me for.

[00:25:30] Signed copies if they like i'm trying to think what else on Twitter as Honda Ohio book.

[00:25:40] I'm on YouTube is ghost engrave on on Boggard and Banshee the supernatural podcast with my partner Simon Young so excited about that we do a lot of 40 in fairy things.

[00:25:57] Very cool well I will definitely make sure that all those links are in the show notes thank you so much for coming on I again this is a huge pleasure for me seeing as I really grew up on the Honda Ohio books and have copies like with an eyesight of.

[00:26:15] I love that there's so many people come up to me and say oh I heard you speak in my elementary school or my middle school and i'm like oh man if i've been doing it this long hard to believe.

[00:26:27] I try not to think about how much time has passed either so I understand right well thanks so much again and this is absolutely fascinating and absolute pleasure so thanks for taking some time out of your data to spend.

[00:26:41] Thank you and happy hauntings.

[00:27:11] Thank you so much for supporting really appreciate will be back with all new mysteries and until then you've been listening to from the void.

[00:27:41] Thank you.

[00:28:11] Thank you.

[00:28:41] Thank you.