(True Crime) Doug Kari ”Berman Murders: the Mojave Desert’s Most Mysterious Unsolved True Crime” pt. 1

[00:00:00] Welcome to Season 5 of From The Void. I'm your host John Williamson and I can't wait

[00:00:26] to share all of the strange and unusual mysteries we've collected for this season. The first

[00:00:31] mystery we're going to dive into this season is a crime that has gone unsolved for nearly

[00:00:36] 40 years. It involves a man named Barry Berman and his wife Louise. Those names may not ring

[00:00:42] a bell, but most of us have probably heard of the popular liqueur Kaluwa, an essential

[00:00:48] ingredient in the very delicious cocktail The White Russian and the preferred drink

[00:00:52] of The Dude from the movie The Big Lebowski. But what does Kaluwa have to do with any

[00:00:56] of this you ask? Well, Barry happened to be the son of Jules Berman who made a

[00:01:02] fortune through real estate and as the first person to import Kaluwa amongst other popular

[00:01:07] imported alcohols into the United States. Very different from his famous father, Barry

[00:01:13] was a guy who loved the outdoors and was a spiritual seeker. Where this mystery begins

[00:01:18] is when Barry and his wife Louise, who is nearly 20 years older and a fellow spiritual

[00:01:23] seeker go on a trip to the Saline Valley hot springs for some rest and relaxation

[00:01:28] and an opportunity to breathe new life into their relationship. We know they made it to

[00:01:33] their campsite and met a few fellow travelers, but what occurred after has yet to be conclusively

[00:01:39] determined. Author Doug Carey's book Berman Murders unraveling the Mojave Desert's

[00:01:44] most mysterious unsolved crime is the most comprehensive look at the Berman case.

[00:01:50] Doug joins me this week for part one of this week's episode The Berman Murders,

[00:01:54] the Mojave Desert's most mysterious unsolved crime on From the Void.

[00:02:07] I have a guest I'm very excited to have on this week. I've got author Doug Carey with me.

[00:02:11] Doug, thank you so much for spending some of your day with me.

[00:02:15] John, thanks for having me.

[00:02:17] Absolutely. This is a fascinating book. Obviously we were just briefly chatted about

[00:02:21] the fact that true crime is very, very popular right now, especially I think, you know,

[00:02:27] there's so many true crime podcasts out there at the moment that the market's pretty

[00:02:31] flooded and so there's a lot of podcasts that have covered a lot of sort of the more

[00:02:34] high profile crimes, but this is sort of a lesser known mystery that for a long time

[00:02:40] went really unsolved. So tell listeners a little bit about like how did you find out

[00:02:45] about this case and what drew you to it?

[00:02:49] So John, I got into it because of my love for the area where these murders occurred.

[00:02:56] If you can picture one of the most remote desert regions of the Western United States,

[00:03:02] in fact, Saline Valley is extraordinarily difficult to get to. You go on a two-lane

[00:03:09] paved road towards Death Valley and in a place that could fairly be characterized

[00:03:14] as the middle of nowhere, you turn onto a dirt road and from there you proceed

[00:03:19] 50 rugged miles when it's even passable and sometimes it isn't because of rains or snow.

[00:03:26] You cross over a mountain range and then come down into this valley that's untouched

[00:03:32] by time. It's a remarkable place, just this pristine desert wilderness with rippling

[00:03:39] sand dunes and a silvery saltwater lake. And in the middle of this timeless desert

[00:03:45] valley is a palm tree oasis where natural hot springs over the years have been developed

[00:03:53] by hippies and eccentric and desert rats into a bathing oasis of soaking pools,

[00:04:02] stone and concrete pools where the hot water has been piped. You come into camp there,

[00:04:07] John, and it's not uncommon. The first thing you see is somebody walking with

[00:04:12] maybe a big hat and sunglasses and sandals and nothing else. It's a place where people

[00:04:17] commune with nature and it's just a remarkable location. I had been going there for years

[00:04:24] and when the Burmans just suddenly vanished and then later turned up dead in a grave

[00:04:33] miles away, it stunned the people like me who loved this wonderful place and thought

[00:04:41] of it as a sanctuary, not a crime scene.

[00:04:45] Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating. I love how you describe in the book and as you

[00:04:50] just did this area because you comment on the fact that it's not a huge distance away

[00:04:57] from the parts of California that come to mind for most people, sunny and beaches

[00:05:01] and stuff like this, but yet there's some extreme weather there and that sort of comes

[00:05:05] into play at the very, very beginning when before we knew it was a murder investigation.

[00:05:11] So talk a little bit about how the initial call came in and also kind of paint the

[00:05:16] picture that this is decades ago, well before the advent of cell phones and technology

[00:05:22] like that.

[00:05:23] It is. We're talking January 1986 and in the town of Independence which remains

[00:05:30] this little county seat. At the time it had a population of about 600. I don't think

[00:05:36] there's that many more folks living in Independence, California today. In fact, it may even be

[00:05:41] less. A deputy named Leon Boyer is manning the radios and a radio call comes in from

[00:05:50] Saling Valley. There was one fellow out there, a guy named Chili Bob, lived

[00:05:55] out there in a little trailer and he had a two-way radio and he called in to report

[00:06:00] that there were some campers who seemed to be overdue, a man and a woman and their truck

[00:06:06] hadn't been moved and it was just sitting there at one of the little campsites. And

[00:06:12] so Deputy Boyer assigned the call to another deputy, a fellow who's now gone named

[00:06:19] Larry Freshour. I wasn't able to ask him why didn't you follow up right away? But

[00:06:24] the fact of the matter is he didn't. The call about these missing people comes

[00:06:28] in on a Friday afternoon and he just does whatever and doesn't follow up. Come Monday,

[00:06:37] Leon Boyer calls him again and says you've got to get on this missing person call,

[00:06:41] this abandoned vehicle. And he finally heads out to Saling Valley and it's a long

[00:06:46] drive to get in there, John. It's a tough go. That may be why Freshour delayed.

[00:06:51] Maybe he was hoping that Barry and Louise Berman would somehow reappear.

[00:06:57] Yeah, that is an interesting part of the story. It almost feels like, and to your

[00:07:02] point earlier, this is not a place where a lot of crime historically has happened

[00:07:07] at this point. And so your first thought is, oh, abandoned vehicle, probably some

[00:07:12] hikers that wandered off, they'll come back. So I'm sure that sense of urgency

[00:07:16] just wasn't there. But regardless, knowing what we know now, probably should have

[00:07:22] gotten out there a little quicker. So talk about the fact that the mystery starts

[00:07:32] to unfold. There's that initial call, as you said, from this guy, this

[00:07:37] character named Chili Bob. And so when he finally gets out there and checks

[00:07:41] out the truck, what's sort of the initial thought process here?

[00:07:46] Well, a couple of things happen, John, kind of at once. One is that Freshour

[00:07:52] gets out there to the scene, finds the abandoned vehicle, doesn't see any

[00:07:57] obvious clues of what might have happened to the owners. Meanwhile, the

[00:08:02] Sheriff's Office gets another call from a woman in Santa Barbara who's a

[00:08:06] friend of the couple saying, hey, these folks are overdue. They were

[00:08:10] supposed to be back days ago. Can you help us find them? And the

[00:08:13] confluence of those two events made the Sheriff's Office realize, wait, we may

[00:08:17] have a problem on our hands. So they start to initiate a search and it just

[00:08:24] mushrooms. Again, a couple of things happen. One is that the initial

[00:08:29] searching doesn't turn up any clue of what happened to the couple, Barry and

[00:08:34] Louise Berman. The other thing that happens is it becomes clear that

[00:08:38] although they're hippie types, kind of unassuming, that actually Barry is the

[00:08:45] heir apparent to the Kaluwala Kerr fortune. His father, Jules Berman, is a

[00:08:49] fabulously wealthy Southern California entrepreneur, well connected. And here

[00:08:56] is this son of the only child of this rich father and the father's

[00:09:02] demanding answers. So the case just starts to go from there. Next thing

[00:09:08] you know, it's like a war zone in Saline Valley. There are helicopters

[00:09:12] coming in from China Lake Naval Weapons Center, from California Highway

[00:09:17] Patrol. The Stockton National Guard sent down a big helicopter and ground

[00:09:22] teams are arriving from all over and they're scouring the valley by air on

[00:09:27] foot trying to find out what happened to this couple. How could they

[00:09:32] just vanish?

[00:09:34] So talk about law enforcement, obviously as they get engaged and they realize

[00:09:38] that, oh you know these folks in fact are missing because we're talking more

[00:09:42] than 72 hours from the reporting of the vehicle. Once they kind of

[00:09:48] determine where they went after exiting the vehicle, what are their first

[00:09:52] impressions? Are they thinking again these are just two naive hikers that

[00:09:56] just went too far and got lost and are just wandering around out there in

[00:10:00] the desert or what are their first sort of impressions?

[00:10:03] Well that's the initial thought is that they just got over extended. That's

[00:10:09] what Leon Boyer thought when I interviewed him. He thought, oh they

[00:10:13] just you know they set out on a hike and they got overly ambitious. I

[00:10:17] mean it happens out there. It happened to me out there years earlier.

[00:10:22] Me and a buddy one of our first trips into Saline Valley we got

[00:10:26] over extended. We self-rescued in the sense that we found our way back out

[00:10:30] of the mountain range that we had climbed into and got back to where the

[00:10:33] car should have been, but by then our friends had gone off to get help and

[00:10:37] the next thing you know there's a helicopter come looking for us. But you

[00:10:41] know we were found quickly. It was one of those experiences that you

[00:10:44] learn from as a young mountaineer, a young explorer. But for the Bermans it

[00:10:49] became clear after a certain point, wait a minute. First of all they had

[00:10:53] information that Louise Berman who was 52 years old, 17 years older than Barry,

[00:10:59] had a sore ankle and had not planned to do much hiking. Also they had left

[00:11:05] their cameras in the truck and if somebody going out on a long hike

[00:11:09] you would think they would bring at least one camera with them. So it

[00:11:13] started to look like they had just gone out on a short hike and not

[00:11:17] come back and by now they should have been found. I mean when you're

[00:11:19] flying over the desert in a helicopter, fixed-wing aircraft and I've done both,

[00:11:24] you can see things on the ground pretty clearly and they weren't spotted.

[00:11:30] And meanwhile there was all these searchers out there scouring the

[00:11:34] places that you wouldn't be able to see as well from there. So the

[00:11:38] sergeant in charge of the search, a very smart dedicated guy named Dan

[00:11:43] Lucas, he later became sheriff of Inyo County, he starts to think this must

[00:11:49] be foul play. But who and why?

[00:11:53] Yeah and what's interesting too is you dig into really who Barry and Louise

[00:12:00] Berman were and you mentioned there was a bit of an age difference and they

[00:12:04] were two very, very different people that I'd love for you to talk a little

[00:12:08] bit about but also in sort of figuring out who they were as people

[00:12:13] you also found out that Barry was a pretty accomplished outdoorsman so

[00:12:18] it would seem that pretty early on you know this doesn't seem like the sort of

[00:12:22] guy that would just wander off and get lost. He knew his way around.

[00:12:25] Barry did know his way around and he was, he was good with his hands, he was

[00:12:29] good in the outdoors so they did come from very different backgrounds. Louise

[00:12:35] was born 17 years earlier than Barry in a what you'd call a working-class

[00:12:39] environment in the East Los Angeles. She had a troubled childhood, she had

[00:12:44] been molested, she didn't bond with her mother. Her mother had farmed her out

[00:12:49] to live with other people as her mother cycled through various lovers

[00:12:54] and husbands. It was a very tough home environment. Barry on the other hand

[00:12:59] was born into fabulous wealth as I mentioned. His father Jules Berman just

[00:13:06] seemed to be a Midas when it came to entrepreneurial ventures. He had early

[00:13:11] in his life as a young man had built a string of six liquor stores starting

[00:13:17] in Beverly Hills and had made a small fortune and then he became a liquor

[00:13:21] distributor after World War II and spotted a trend. He spotted that

[00:13:25] consumers in the US might be interested in kind of exotic overseas

[00:13:30] alcoholic beverages so he was one of the people who pioneered bringing a

[00:13:37] unique tasting beer called Heineken to the United States and of course

[00:13:41] that became a huge success. J&B Scotch and various other overseas

[00:13:48] alcoholic beverages. Then he had this opportunity to buy a liquor

[00:13:53] called Kaluwa that nobody had ever heard of. It was only selling fewer than

[00:13:57] a thousand cases a year and he was just a genius promoter who plowed

[00:14:01] money into advertising and went out and pitched and Kaluwa became this

[00:14:06] huge success worldwide selling over a million cases a year. Jules Berman

[00:14:10] had a mansion in Beverly Hills. He had a yacht named Kaluwa. He had a

[00:14:15] garage full of exotic cars like Maserati and Ferrari and Rolls-Royce.

[00:14:21] The fellow who founded Tiger Lines, it's an early air package

[00:14:29] delivery service that later became acquired and became one of the

[00:14:33] origins of FedEx. He and that entrepreneur they were both very

[00:14:38] successful. They owned a 10,000 acre hunting preserve together. He got

[00:14:43] involved up at Lake Arrowhead in Los Angeles, Jules did with some partners.

[00:14:47] He didn't just like do a little dabbling in real estate. They bought

[00:14:51] the entire lake. It's a private lake. They bought 3,000 acres of

[00:14:55] surrounding woodlands. They bought the village and they developed a golf

[00:14:59] course and made it this huge thing. He went into big residential real

[00:15:04] estate development, Huntington Harbor and other places. He got into oil. I

[00:15:08] mean, he was so wealthy but he and his wife were rather cold. They had

[00:15:15] servants. They kind of farmed out raising Barry to servants. He was a

[00:15:20] very detached and thoughtful young man who really pushed back against

[00:15:26] this lifestyle that was so devoid of love and parental affection.

[00:15:31] So you have two kind of damaged people, John, who both find their

[00:15:37] way independently to a Punjabi guru named Charan Singh and they become

[00:15:42] disciples of this guru and begin practicing transcendental meditation.

[00:15:48] And it's through that shared connection that they meet. By the

[00:15:52] time they meet, as you indicated, Barry has done a lot of exploring

[00:15:56] of hot springs and such. He's a very accomplished outdoors guy and

[00:16:00] Louise herself had lived in the outdoors before. So these were

[00:16:05] experienced folks going into an area they hadn't been in before, but

[00:16:09] they weren't novices.

[00:16:12] Yeah, that's I think that's a really interesting part of the story. And

[00:16:15] so obviously before too long, they realized that they aren't just lost,

[00:16:20] you know, and so talk a little bit about how this evolves from an

[00:16:25] abandoned vehicle to a missing persons case, and ultimately into a

[00:16:30] double homicide.

[00:16:32] So after the Inyo County Sheriff's Office called off the ground and

[00:16:37] air search, and it often on that process went on for gosh, the

[00:16:41] better part of a month because there was also a private search

[00:16:43] funded by Jules Berman. But after all of that died down and the

[00:16:48] sheriff's office was convinced it was foul play, they began

[00:16:51] pursuing different avenues of inquiry, but none of them were

[00:16:56] really backed by any evidence. It was just speculation. I mean,

[00:17:01] did they run off and just deliberately vanish as a way of

[00:17:06] just disappearing from Jules is mega wealth world entirely and

[00:17:11] just move to some remote location? Were they robbed and, and,

[00:17:17] and kidnapped? Oh, you know, what happened to them? Was there

[00:17:20] some sort of cult environment? involvement was this Punjabi

[00:17:25] guru somehow involved? Anyway, they quickly ruled out those kinds

[00:17:28] of things and started looking around and focusing on the

[00:17:33] people who were there in the same area when the Berman's

[00:17:39] disappeared. And there was only a small number of them. And

[00:17:42] one of the people who aroused investigators interests was a

[00:17:48] man that they understood was a military man, they knew his

[00:17:51] name was Mike, he was traveling alone, and there was

[00:17:54] some behavior of his that seemed suggestive. And the

[00:18:00] investigators began to zero in, but they had no idea who he

[00:18:04] was or where they could find him.

[00:18:07] Oh, wow. Yeah. And you talk about in the book too, there

[00:18:10] were very small handful of people who presumably were the

[00:18:15] last to see this couple alive. And so talk a little bit

[00:18:19] about like what we know for sure, in terms of or at

[00:18:22] least what they can safely presume in terms of what

[00:18:26] happened after they left the automobile, like they arrived at

[00:18:29] nighttime and then kind of from there, like sort of what they

[00:18:32] can kind of piece together.

[00:18:34] Here's what investigators found. And then even decades

[00:18:38] later, I was able to go back, re interview the key people

[00:18:41] and follow the footsteps of the Berman's both both

[00:18:45] literally kind of physically following in their paths and

[00:18:49] also through interviews and investigation looking at

[00:18:53] everything. It appears what happened, and this is what we

[00:18:57] know, they arrive on a Sunday evening. It's a moonless night.

[00:19:02] They park near one of these beautiful concrete and stone

[00:19:06] soaking pools. They get out they actually put on bathing

[00:19:11] suits, which is rather unusual. The bathing suits

[00:19:14] might have come off later. They weren't prudish. They

[00:19:16] were just, you know, cautious people. They slipped into the

[00:19:19] water. So imagine, you know, it's kind of a, it's winter

[00:19:22] time, a little bit cold out here in this wonderful warm

[00:19:26] bath water. And there are three men in in the tub with

[00:19:31] them and they're all chatting. Two of the men are

[00:19:34] actually young guys, they're in their 20s. And they're

[00:19:36] dirt bike riders, motorcycle riders, and they're out there

[00:19:39] with a with an older buddy, he was kind of the one that

[00:19:42] put the trip together and they're riding around on

[00:19:44] their dirt bikes during the day. And then at night,

[00:19:46] they're, they're drinking and hanging out in the hot tubs

[00:19:49] and just having a good time three motorcycle riders from

[00:19:51] Modesto. Then there's this man traveling alone seems like

[00:19:55] a nice guy has kind of a resonant voice. He's an

[00:19:58] officer in the military. He he is well spoken. He

[00:20:06] mentions that he'd gone to school in New Mexico seems

[00:20:08] well educated. At a certain point, the motorcycle riders

[00:20:13] get up to go to bed and they leave this fellow Mike, the

[00:20:16] military man in the tub with the Berman's for some

[00:20:20] indeterminate amount of time. And then everybody goes

[00:20:23] to bed. The next morning, the Berman's are reportedly

[00:20:27] seen by campers that we haven't been able to ever

[00:20:32] identify. But they it was a couple in there and their

[00:20:36] son hippie couple from Northern California is how

[00:20:39] they were described. They said they'd seen the Berman's

[00:20:43] head off up this rough little road that leaves from

[00:20:48] the campground and and goes a long way into the

[00:20:52] desert wilderness and eventually crosses out of

[00:20:55] saline valley and down a very rugged Canyon into

[00:20:58] Eureka Valley, another beautiful desert valley. So

[00:21:02] the Berman's go off hiking up, up the road. The

[00:21:06] motorcycle riders observe Mike, the military man, he

[00:21:09] takes stuff out of his truck. He's going to head out

[00:21:11] for the day in his vehicle. So he unloads his

[00:21:13] camp anger and such he's got gas and water and a

[00:21:16] shovel. And he starts going up that same road in

[00:21:19] the same direction that the Berman's have gone.

[00:21:22] Eventually, the motorcycle riders also head off in

[00:21:25] that direction, but they're kind of exploring

[00:21:27] around. Sometimes they're riding into places where

[00:21:30] really they shouldn't they're supposed to stay to

[00:21:32] the road. But these guys are out there having fun

[00:21:35] driving up these dry washes and such. Well, what

[00:21:39] happens is late in the day, the military man in

[00:21:45] his little pickup truck is observed coming back

[00:21:49] down this road. And he's observed by a couple

[00:21:53] that had just arrived in camp a few hours

[00:21:56] earlier, an older guy and a younger very pretty

[00:21:59] woman. I don't name them in the book because

[00:22:02] they asked me not to. I did interview them.

[00:22:05] They're well known in the eastern Sierra as

[00:22:08] mountaineers and outdoors people. So he comes

[00:22:12] into camp, parks his truck, he walks over to

[00:22:15] where they're camped. He's dusty and covered

[00:22:19] in dirt. And he seems kind of jumpy. And he

[00:22:22] said, Well, I quit smoking but I really like

[00:22:25] a pack of cigarettes. And he saw that they had

[00:22:27] some cigarettes and he offered to trade a can

[00:22:29] of peaches for a pack of smokes. So the woman

[00:22:32] this younger woman very pretty says, Oh, sure,

[00:22:35] you know, they chat a little bit. Well, the

[00:22:37] next thing you know, he's like raising the

[00:22:40] possibility of having a threesome. He's just

[00:22:43] met these people. So he's he comes back to

[00:22:48] camp. The Berman's never come back but he

[00:22:50] comes back. He's been gone all day. He's

[00:22:53] covered in dust. He's kind of jumpy and

[00:22:56] edgy and he wants to have a smoke even

[00:22:57] he's quit and he's charged up and talking

[00:23:00] about having sex. That is suggestive of

[00:23:04] somebody who might have gone off the rails

[00:23:07] because of some sexual motivation or maybe

[00:23:10] something happened that charged him up

[00:23:13] sexually. We're not sure what this guy is

[00:23:15] made of but investigators thought this was

[00:23:18] very suggestive behavior and they wanted to

[00:23:21] talk to him. Problem was, they didn't know

[00:23:24] where to find him.

[00:23:24] Yeah, so they so you talk about just again,

[00:23:29] a very small group of people, you know,

[00:23:32] that you talk about the fact that the dirt

[00:23:34] bunk riders were very forthright. They

[00:23:36] cooperated and even I believe you mentioned

[00:23:40] that you were able to re interview some

[00:23:43] of them as well. So that so the spotlight

[00:23:46] seems to almost immediately focused on

[00:23:48] this former military gentleman. And so talk

[00:23:52] about they do eventually locate him it

[00:23:53] sounds like and initially he does

[00:23:57] cooperate and give them an interview.

[00:23:58] Talk about you know what what transpired

[00:24:01] at that point.

[00:24:02] Yeah, well the motorcycle riders were just

[00:24:04] an open book as you indicate they were

[00:24:07] very forthcoming with investigators same

[00:24:09] thing when I interviewed them. They

[00:24:10] didn't try to be interviewed together

[00:24:12] and coordinate their stories actually sent

[00:24:14] me their original photos so I could look

[00:24:16] at him that they'd taken that day kind

[00:24:18] of showing where they had gone. These guys

[00:24:20] are just an open book. I even looked at

[00:24:23] one of the motorcycles because I wanted

[00:24:25] to see could you carry a passenger on

[00:24:27] it because based on where the Berman's

[00:24:29] bodies were found. It's highly unlikely

[00:24:33] they could have hiked that far they

[00:24:34] must have been in a motor vehicle of

[00:24:36] some kind. Well, one of the dirt bikes

[00:24:38] that is still under a tarp up on this

[00:24:40] fellow's property I took a look at

[00:24:42] it and as as expected from the

[00:24:44] manufacturer specifications there's no

[00:24:46] passenger seat. There's no foot pegs

[00:24:48] it's just a little dirt bike. So they

[00:24:52] were eliminated as possible suspects.

[00:24:55] Now the military man some extraordinary

[00:24:58] work by this deputy Leon Boyer he was

[00:25:01] able to figure out the guy's name. He

[00:25:04] started going out to Saline Valley on

[00:25:06] his own time. He had a composite

[00:25:08] drawing that was a remarkable likeness

[00:25:10] of the man as it later turns out and

[00:25:12] eventually he's able to develop

[00:25:14] information of who he is. Turns out

[00:25:17] he's a captain at a Marine Corps

[00:25:20] logistics base. He actually is the

[00:25:23] adjunct to the commanding general. So

[00:25:26] the sheriff's office arranges to do a

[00:25:29] surprise interview of him and they go

[00:25:33] to the base. They sit down in a

[00:25:35] conference room. The commanding

[00:25:36] general says there's some people

[00:25:38] here who want to talk to you. So he

[00:25:40] walks in he sits down they click on

[00:25:42] the tape recorder. Now he could have

[00:25:45] lawyered up but he didn't. And when

[00:25:48] they start asking him questions he

[00:25:50] seems kind of nervous but you know who

[00:25:52] wouldn't be in that situation. And

[00:25:54] originally you know at the beginning

[00:25:56] he's he seems to have good recall

[00:25:58] he's offering a lot of detail. But

[00:26:00] then when they start getting into

[00:26:01] where where were you that day tell

[00:26:03] us about your trip. Keep in mind

[00:26:06] this was before the bodies had been

[00:26:07] found only 10 months had gone by and

[00:26:10] this military man he couldn't

[00:26:12] remember whether he had gone on a

[00:26:14] trip alone or with somebody else. He

[00:26:16] couldn't remember where he camped. He

[00:26:18] seemed fuzzy about the dates. He

[00:26:20] didn't want to be pinned down about

[00:26:22] anything. Then when they finally get

[00:26:24] him to admit that he was there he

[00:26:26] was there during the time frame he

[00:26:28] had parked in the same place at and

[00:26:31] camped at the same campground they

[00:26:32] start trying to get some detail well

[00:26:34] what did you do while you were

[00:26:35] there. He's all over the board. They're

[00:26:37] asking him about the day in question

[00:26:39] oh I might have gone for a drive oh

[00:26:41] I oh gosh I think I went for a hike

[00:26:43] oh I sat in the tub and read a

[00:26:46] book all day. He was offering up

[00:26:48] floating different explanations and

[00:26:50] when the law enforcement guys would

[00:26:51] start to would start to just you know

[00:26:57] attack that and make him realize oh

[00:26:59] my god they're you know they know

[00:27:00] more than I think he would he would

[00:27:02] veer off in another direction. It

[00:27:03] was a terrible interview. I mean

[00:27:06] don't hold it against me. I'm a

[00:27:07] lawyer so I can't help but think

[00:27:09] like a lawyer and as a lawyer I

[00:27:11] kept wanting to just tell him stop

[00:27:13] talking. Lawyer up man don't keep

[00:27:16] talking because you're hanging

[00:27:18] yourself right now.

[00:27:20] Stop. This message could save you

[00:27:22] from investing your precious time

[00:27:24] into a true crime story that goes

[00:27:25] nowhere. Avoid that disappointment.

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[00:28:21] Yeah so I mean like based on

[00:28:23] that the fact that obviously he

[00:28:25] was clearly digging himself some

[00:28:27] pretty substantial holes as a

[00:28:30] you know even as someone who's

[00:28:31] never been in law enforcement

[00:28:33] you know if I had been a party

[00:28:35] to that immediately I'm thinking

[00:28:37] I think we have our guy.

[00:28:38] So what are what are what are

[00:28:39] law enforcement thinking at this

[00:28:40] point do they think hey we've

[00:28:42] got our guy and then obviously

[00:28:44] years go by where he's not

[00:28:46] arrested for this crime.

[00:28:48] It goes unsolved.

[00:28:49] So what happened that they

[00:28:51] were never able to quite put

[00:28:53] that case together.

[00:28:55] Very much they did think they

[00:28:56] had their guy and when I came

[00:28:58] into the case John I had a

[00:29:01] clean slate.

[00:29:01] I had no dog in this hunt.

[00:29:03] I would have loved to prove

[00:29:05] them wrong but as I piece

[00:29:07] together the evidence

[00:29:08] interviewed people and tried to

[00:29:11] determine what happened.

[00:29:12] I came to the same conclusion

[00:29:14] that the evidence seemed to

[00:29:16] point in his direction.

[00:29:17] Now listen he's never been

[00:29:18] arrested on this he's never

[00:29:20] been charged.

[00:29:21] So under our system he is

[00:29:23] innocent until proven guilty.

[00:29:25] However you know the fact of

[00:29:28] the matter is that there's a

[00:29:30] lot of circumstantial evidence

[00:29:32] that points in his direction

[00:29:33] law enforcement felt they had

[00:29:34] the right guy but they just

[00:29:35] didn't have the evidence in

[00:29:37] fact at first they didn't even

[00:29:39] have the bodies.

[00:29:40] Then almost three years after

[00:29:43] the Berman's disappeared

[00:29:44] miles away a hiker stumbles

[00:29:49] across a human skull and when

[00:29:51] investigators go back to the

[00:29:53] scene they find a grave site

[00:29:56] where it's obvious that

[00:29:58] somebody has deliberately

[00:30:00] concealed these bodies by

[00:30:02] removing their clothing

[00:30:03] stacking them in a kind of a

[00:30:06] natural feature of what's

[00:30:08] called a desert dry wash where

[00:30:10] water has carved a kind of a

[00:30:12] trough and the bodies were

[00:30:14] stacked in there and then

[00:30:15] covered with rocks and dirt

[00:30:17] and concealed.

[00:30:19] And but by the time they

[00:30:23] find the remains the

[00:30:25] remains are so degraded they

[00:30:26] can't determine a cause of

[00:30:27] death they're sure it's a

[00:30:28] homicide it's classified as a

[00:30:30] homicide and a deliberate

[00:30:32] hiding of the bodies

[00:30:33] afterwards.

[00:30:34] They don't know how it

[00:30:34] happened the only piece of

[00:30:36] evidence that's rather

[00:30:38] chilling and suggestive is

[00:30:40] that they found a tiny

[00:30:42] handcuffed key with the

[00:30:43] remains but there was nothing

[00:30:46] to tie the remains to any

[00:30:49] specific cause of death or for

[00:30:51] that matter any person.

[00:30:53] And so you know it just the

[00:30:56] whole investigation just kind

[00:30:58] of goes by the wayside in

[00:30:59] fact the Inyo County

[00:31:00] Sheriff's Office never even

[00:31:01] prepares a homicide report.

[00:31:04] They just kind of give up on

[00:31:05] on the case.

[00:31:07] Later a federal investigator

[00:31:09] gets involved because the

[00:31:10] chief suspect was a U.S.

[00:31:13] Marine and also the

[00:31:16] homicides occurred on

[00:31:18] federal land so the federal

[00:31:20] government had jurisdiction

[00:31:22] to investigate and they did

[00:31:24] and they came into it

[00:31:25] charging hard and trying to

[00:31:27] figure out what happened.

[00:31:28] They also had their eyes on

[00:31:30] the same suspect but it

[00:31:32] just didn't pan out.

[00:31:35] It didn't pan out.

[00:31:36] They didn't get enough to

[00:31:37] file charges.

[00:31:39] So there the case sat until I

[00:31:41] started investigating.

[00:31:52] Thank you for listening to

[00:31:53] From The Void.

[00:31:54] If you enjoyed this or any of

[00:31:55] the prior episodes please

[00:31:57] consider rating reviewing and

[00:31:59] sharing with a friend.

[00:32:00] We'll be back next week

[00:32:01] with the second part of my

[00:32:02] interview with author Doug

[00:32:03] Carey.

[00:32:04] Until then you've been

[00:32:06] listening to From The Void.