(Mystery) John Clark ”The Green Children of Woolpit” pt. 1

[00:00:02] From the darkest reaches of space to the deepest corners of your mind. Welcome to From The Void.

[00:00:17] Welcome to From The Void. I'm your host, John Williamson, and this week's mystery is a strange one indeed.

[00:00:22] It's baffled historians and caused debate for ages. It's the story of the green children of Woolpit, an event that allegedly took place back in the 12th century.

[00:00:31] Who were these children and where did they come from? What language were they speaking?

[00:00:36] Were they simply from another country, which would explain the fact that they didn't speak the same language, or the fact that they were wearing strange clothing?

[00:00:44] Or were they from another planet altogether, as some have suggested?

[00:00:48] Why was their skin green, though, and why did it eventually fade over time?

[00:00:53] It's a strange story to be sure, and on this week's episode I talk to historian John Clark,

[00:00:58] who has arguably done more research on the topic than anyone and wrote the book on it,

[00:01:03] The Green Children of Woolpit, Chronicles, Fairies, and Facts in Medieval England.

[00:01:07] John Clark was for many years curator of the medieval collections at the Museum of London.

[00:01:12] Since retiring in 2009, he has continued research, lecturing, and writing on topics including the history and archaeology of medieval London,

[00:01:20] medieval folklore and legends, and their relationship to real history.

[00:01:24] Welcome to this week's mystery, the mystery of The Green Children of Woolpit, with John Clark on From the Void.

[00:01:40] All right, John Clark, thank you so much for spending some time on the podcast with me today.

[00:01:45] Well, I'm glad to be here.

[00:01:47] Absolutely. You've written the book on this sort of legend, The Green Children of Woolpit.

[00:01:54] So tell folks a little bit about your background and what caused you to become interested in this particular topic.

[00:02:02] Well, I spent most of my working life as a museum curator at the Museum of London,

[00:02:08] where I was responsible for the medieval collections.

[00:02:12] So that's the City of London and everything around it from roughly 500 AD to 1500 AD.

[00:02:21] And did various exhibitions, new galleries, articles, publications about the archaeology and history of London.

[00:02:33] But I got very interested in what you might call legendary history.

[00:02:37] Because if you asked a medieval Londoner about Roman London, he would never have heard of it.

[00:02:47] He will be convinced that London was founded by some Trojan exile called Brutus in about 1100 BC and called New Troy.

[00:02:59] So there's a whole history that is actually parallel to what we regard as the real story.

[00:03:08] And that brought up an interest in generally in legends and this sort of background,

[00:03:17] the things that actually people believe that may or may not reflect reality.

[00:03:23] And it was about 25 years ago, I first came across this extraordinary story from East Anglia,

[00:03:33] from Suffolk, northeast of London, that two independent medieval historians told.

[00:03:44] Both of them, William of Newburgh, way up in Yorkshire, and Rafe of Coggershaw, a good Essex lad from not very far east of London.

[00:03:55] Independently, it seemed, both heard this story and both thought it was worth writing down

[00:04:02] that out of the blue, one summer's day, in this little village called Woolpit,

[00:04:10] two strange children turned up and were taken by the villagers.

[00:04:15] And the first thing everybody said is, oh, they're green.

[00:04:18] They all agreed the kids were green, whatever that might mean.

[00:04:22] We'll come to that later, perhaps.

[00:04:24] And it was so fascinating because it obviously was, it sounded as if it had actually happened.

[00:04:31] But if you asked a folklorist about it, oh, it's a folk tale.

[00:04:35] No, no, it never happened.

[00:04:36] It happened.

[00:04:37] Oh, no, no, no.

[00:04:38] They all made it up.

[00:04:39] Passed on.

[00:04:39] Path of the sun, the generations.

[00:04:42] Yeah.

[00:04:43] No, no, no.

[00:04:44] It's full of folk motifs.

[00:04:47] It's every item in it.

[00:04:49] You can parallel.

[00:04:50] Oh, this happened there, there, there, there, and there.

[00:04:52] No, no, no.

[00:04:54] Historians were a bit wary about it.

[00:04:57] So I thought, that's something to think about.

[00:05:00] I did do a bit of research, but it wasn't until I retired from the museum,

[00:05:04] I began to take it a bit more seriously and realized just how fascinating it was.

[00:05:11] And then kept at it until, as you say, they managed to get it published as a book a month ago.

[00:05:20] It's incredible.

[00:05:21] Yeah.

[00:05:21] It's such an unusual tale.

[00:05:24] It's not something, you know, look, the folklore says, you said, you can point to different stories

[00:05:29] throughout different, you know, societies that, you know, they, they kind of use common motifs

[00:05:34] and, and sort of recycle sort of the, the, the skeleton as it were of the, of the story.

[00:05:40] But this one's very unusual.

[00:05:41] I'd not heard of anything remotely like this before.

[00:05:44] So for folks who aren't familiar, starting back at the very beginning, when, when,

[00:05:49] what was the time period this allegedly took place?

[00:05:52] What, I'm sorry.

[00:05:55] What, what was the, oh yeah.

[00:05:57] What was the time period that this event allegedly took place?

[00:06:00] Right.

[00:06:01] Well, the two historians, one is Rafe of Coggeshall, who was abbot, abbot of this small Cistercian

[00:06:08] abbey in Essex, near the town of Colchester, so in North of the county.

[00:06:17] He was abbot of the monastery in the 1100, the, the roughly around 1200 AD.

[00:06:29] He finished writing his History of England, which is traditional.

[00:06:34] English history starts in 1066 with, so, so he wrote his history from then up to about

[00:06:41] 1224 when he probably died.

[00:06:44] Adding bits to it as he went.

[00:06:45] William was up in a similar sort of monastery, Augustinian, in, far up in the north, in Yorkshire.

[00:06:57] He died in 1198.

[00:07:00] He had been also writing a history of England.

[00:07:05] England, and that stops dead when he died.

[00:07:11] So, there are manuscripts, several manuscripts of their works, and two of them are in the

[00:07:17] British Library in London, and Rafe's one looks as if it was written in his own hand.

[00:07:24] It certainly is as it were a draft with corrections and things in it.

[00:07:30] So, they are late 12th century, around 1200, basically.

[00:07:38] But they are looking back to the past, and then you have to work out when did it, when

[00:07:44] did the event they are describing happen?

[00:07:48] Because what they both do is have a, as many medieval chronicles do, they have a chapter

[00:07:54] of wonders, strange things that happened.

[00:07:58] And basically, the main story goes on.

[00:08:00] This king did that.

[00:08:02] This king did that.

[00:08:03] This bishop died.

[00:08:05] There was a war in such and such.

[00:08:07] But the Crusaders went off, and the Crusaders came back.

[00:08:10] And all the things that we learn in traditional, at least in English, traditional schools about

[00:08:17] history.

[00:08:18] Battles, wars, laws, and those sort of things.

[00:08:22] But they sort of enliven it with these wonders.

[00:08:26] It might be just a comet.

[00:08:29] There was a drought.

[00:08:32] There were floods.

[00:08:34] People died.

[00:08:35] There was a plague.

[00:08:37] These sort of ancillary events.

[00:08:40] But they also thought it was worth writing down these perhaps strange, very strange things.

[00:08:49] Giant bones were discovered.

[00:08:54] And things like that.

[00:08:58] That, well, don't get into, as it were, traditional history.

[00:09:04] Or rather, perhaps they do get into traditional history.

[00:09:06] They don't get into orthodox history.

[00:09:08] There's a slight difference there.

[00:09:09] But of these, historians, academic historians, are very worried about these.

[00:09:20] Why should these serious historians think these are worth recording?

[00:09:26] And they come up with nice theories about, well, really, it's deliberate.

[00:09:32] They're sort of, they've got a hidden agenda.

[00:09:36] There is something hidden in this story that relates to the events surrounding it.

[00:09:42] But frankly, I don't think it is.

[00:09:43] I think William of Newborough puts it rather nicely.

[00:09:47] Well, she says, I'm really not sure about the truth of this.

[00:09:51] But I was told by reliable witnesses.

[00:09:54] And he goes on to explain why they are reliable.

[00:09:57] Because they were well known in the vicinity.

[00:09:59] Never known to tell a lie.

[00:10:01] They must be true sort of thing.

[00:10:02] I'm not sure we believe him.

[00:10:04] But of them, he feels that it was so well witnessed.

[00:10:14] I must record it.

[00:10:16] It is just part of it.

[00:10:18] But he does separate it off.

[00:10:20] He doesn't put it into the main story.

[00:10:22] He finishes, and this is important,

[00:10:25] he finishes his account of the reign of King Stephen up to 1135 to 1154.

[00:10:34] But before going on to the next reign, which is Henry II,

[00:10:37] he puts in a chapter of wonders.

[00:10:40] This and various other things.

[00:10:42] There was a theft of a wonderful cup from a fairy hill in Yorkshire,

[00:10:49] near where he lived.

[00:10:51] There was a couple of toads found embedded in stone.

[00:10:58] Or a couple of greyhounds also, which is unlikely.

[00:11:03] So there were various strange events that he thought,

[00:11:06] which implies with it.

[00:11:08] And he actually says, this event happened in Woolpit, in East Anglia,

[00:11:14] happened in the time of King Stephen, i.e. before 1154.

[00:11:18] So it makes sense.

[00:11:21] Ray for Cockishaw is a bit more difficult,

[00:11:24] because he also shoves in a chapter of wonders,

[00:11:29] but he only puts it in, in his account of the crusade,

[00:11:36] which is the 1190s, and mixes it up with various others

[00:11:43] that seem to have occurred at different times.

[00:11:45] He never actually specifies.

[00:11:50] And it might be out of order.

[00:11:52] It might be so.

[00:11:55] I think I'd go with Wilbur Newborough,

[00:11:57] that we're talking about perhaps the very end of Stephen's reign,

[00:12:02] so the 1150s.

[00:12:04] But other people have looked at it and said,

[00:12:06] well, it can't be as early as that.

[00:12:07] It must be the 1170s.

[00:12:08] The only other dating we have is the dates of the people mentioned in it,

[00:12:16] like this chap, Richard de Corn,

[00:12:20] of where the children were actually taken by the police Woolpit.

[00:12:24] We've got a sort of biography for him.

[00:12:28] He was a Norman landowner.

[00:12:29] Because, of course, the only people who actually get into the histories

[00:12:33] are people of status.

[00:12:37] So, and only the people of status get into the sort of other records.

[00:12:44] There's no birth, marriage and death certificates.

[00:12:46] We don't have a list of the villagers of Woolpit in the 1150s

[00:12:50] or anything like that.

[00:12:51] They just, well, they weren't worth counting.

[00:12:56] So that's the sort of date we're going for, mid-12th century AD.

[00:13:02] Which, you know, even though we can't lock down a specific date,

[00:13:05] it still helps us to understand sort of the time period

[00:13:08] and sort of some of the customs.

[00:13:10] So talk a little bit about, before we get into that,

[00:13:13] talk a little bit about the basis of the story.

[00:13:17] Like what do the two historians agree upon

[00:13:19] in terms of the series of events?

[00:13:21] If you put the two stories together, which is very interesting,

[00:13:28] I think I did actually do in the book a little table

[00:13:31] showing the two stories side by side.

[00:13:34] Because what becomes clear very quickly is they,

[00:13:38] in spite of being so far apart and using apparently different sources,

[00:13:44] the basic story is the same.

[00:13:47] The story of the events.

[00:13:52] And from that you can gather it was summer.

[00:13:57] It was harvest time.

[00:14:00] So it's sort of July, August.

[00:14:04] And the villages of Woolpit,

[00:14:08] which is between the towns of Bury St Edmonds and Stow Market

[00:14:12] in the English county of Suffolk, East Anglia.

[00:14:19] And they were out in the fields and suddenly,

[00:14:22] as if out of the ground,

[00:14:24] and one of the, our historians says,

[00:14:26] out of a pit,

[00:14:27] appeared these two little children.

[00:14:30] One was a boy.

[00:14:31] One was a girl.

[00:14:33] We later discover they were brother and sister.

[00:14:36] But since the only people who knew that will be the children themselves,

[00:14:41] we only discover that later when they learn to speak English.

[00:14:46] Because that was the other thing.

[00:14:48] That was one of the things that noticed me.

[00:14:49] They couldn't speak English.

[00:14:51] They had a strange language.

[00:14:53] They didn't understand what people told them or said to them.

[00:14:56] But the first thing that everybody spotted

[00:14:59] was that they were green.

[00:15:01] And our two Latin writing historians put it down as viridis,

[00:15:08] which is a standard Latin word for green.

[00:15:12] And you must be wary of the colour terms,

[00:15:15] because in different languages,

[00:15:18] the terms mean different things.

[00:15:20] But fortunately,

[00:15:21] Latin and English are pretty close

[00:15:24] in what we think of as green.

[00:15:27] Don't ask a Welshman, for example,

[00:15:29] because their words mean so different,

[00:15:32] totally different colours.

[00:15:35] But what is rather worrying,

[00:15:38] if you want to inspect the reality of this story,

[00:15:41] is that Rafe of Coruscant also uses a different word.

[00:15:46] He calls them viridis,

[00:15:48] but he also calls them presinus color.

[00:15:51] And presinus is a very particular Latin word

[00:15:56] that means a very vivid, dark green.

[00:16:01] It doesn't mean vaguely greenish.

[00:16:03] It doesn't mean white with a tinge of green.

[00:16:06] It doesn't mean you're looking very ill,

[00:16:08] close to death,

[00:16:10] green about the gills sort of thing.

[00:16:12] It means you are very dark green.

[00:16:16] And that really becomes a problem.

[00:16:19] So we have to decide,

[00:16:20] do we actually believe Rafe of Coruscant?

[00:16:25] But then the children were trying to run away.

[00:16:29] They were terrified.

[00:16:30] They were weeping.

[00:16:31] They were totally scared.

[00:16:33] But the villagers captured them,

[00:16:36] which is a word to remember.

[00:16:38] They weren't willing to be caught.

[00:16:44] So the villagers took them to the village.

[00:16:48] They seemed to have decided,

[00:16:49] tried to feed them.

[00:16:50] And the children were obviously starving,

[00:16:53] emaciated.

[00:16:54] They were very ill indeed,

[00:16:56] refused the food they were offered.

[00:17:00] We later learned that the girl,

[00:17:02] when she could speak English,

[00:17:03] said they thought the food was inedible,

[00:17:07] whatever that might mean.

[00:17:09] So the villagers had to decide what to do.

[00:17:13] And pretty quickly,

[00:17:14] they seemed to decide to pass the buck,

[00:17:17] find somebody else.

[00:17:19] It was somebody else's problem.

[00:17:21] Get them out of the village.

[00:17:22] We don't want,

[00:17:23] nothing to do with us.

[00:17:25] So they took the rather extraordinary decision

[00:17:30] to take them not to their nearest town,

[00:17:34] various Netherlands,

[00:17:35] or to the abbey,

[00:17:37] where they would find learned sort of monks

[00:17:40] and people who might be able to know

[00:17:43] who these children were,

[00:17:44] what they,

[00:17:45] why,

[00:17:45] why,

[00:17:46] what the language they were speaking was,

[00:17:48] why they were dressed in strange clothing.

[00:17:51] That was the other thing.

[00:17:53] Clothing looked odd.

[00:17:54] It was unusual.

[00:17:55] I suppose it wasn't English.

[00:17:58] They looked foreign or alien,

[00:18:03] which means the same thing.

[00:18:05] So get rid of them.

[00:18:08] So they took them basically walking,

[00:18:12] presumably,

[00:18:13] with the kids trailing along,

[00:18:15] weeping all the way,

[00:18:16] says one of our authors,

[00:18:18] at six miles north,

[00:18:21] over fields and byways and lanes,

[00:18:24] it's one domain road,

[00:18:25] to a place called Barnwell,

[00:18:28] a village,

[00:18:29] where,

[00:18:30] was the manor house of this man,

[00:18:33] Sir Richard de Corn.

[00:18:36] He was a landowner,

[00:18:39] a Norman,

[00:18:40] French speaking.

[00:18:45] We know very little bit about him.

[00:18:48] We know he died in about 1188.

[00:18:51] So that's one of the things that give us a sort of date.

[00:18:55] And they left the kids at his house,

[00:18:59] in this manor house called Wicks,

[00:19:01] which was somewhere in the parish of Barnwell,

[00:19:05] six miles north of Orbit.

[00:19:08] So in fact,

[00:19:09] they were the green children of Barnwell from then on,

[00:19:11] because that's where they stayed.

[00:19:13] The households,

[00:19:18] Sir Richard and his household took them in,

[00:19:20] found them equally mysterious,

[00:19:23] they obviously didn't,

[00:19:24] if Sir Richard was there,

[00:19:26] they obviously,

[00:19:26] he couldn't speak to them either.

[00:19:28] So they obviously weren't speaking,

[00:19:30] either English,

[00:19:31] or Anglo-Norman French,

[00:19:34] the language of the landowners at the time.

[00:19:38] It would have been a local priest,

[00:19:41] so he would try them in Latin.

[00:19:42] It wouldn't work.

[00:19:45] So just as alien to Sir Richard,

[00:19:48] as to anybody else,

[00:19:49] it seems.

[00:19:51] They tried feeding,

[00:19:52] the kids were still refused all food,

[00:19:57] until,

[00:19:58] and the next extraordinary event,

[00:20:01] somebody brought into the house

[00:20:03] a bundle of beanstalks,

[00:20:06] fresh green beans,

[00:20:09] straight from the fields.

[00:20:10] These will be what we call broad beans,

[00:20:15] farber beans,

[00:20:16] farber beans.

[00:20:19] Most beans we use in the world today

[00:20:22] are actually new world products

[00:20:23] and weren't available in medieval Europe,

[00:20:26] so we know what sort of beans they were.

[00:20:28] And the kids

[00:20:30] pounced upon them,

[00:20:31] say,

[00:20:32] yes,

[00:20:33] yes,

[00:20:33] I mean,

[00:20:33] these were something they recognised.

[00:20:36] Next extraordinary event,

[00:20:37] the kids scrabbled at them

[00:20:39] and tried to find the beans

[00:20:41] and they couldn't.

[00:20:43] They tried,

[00:20:44] apparently,

[00:20:45] opening the stalks,

[00:20:47] looking for the beans in the stalks,

[00:20:49] until one of Sir Richard's servants

[00:20:53] showed them where the bean pods were

[00:20:56] and how you spit open the bean pod

[00:20:58] and inside the beans

[00:20:59] and the kids immediately started eating raw beans.

[00:21:05] So,

[00:21:06] next question,

[00:21:07] how on earth did the kids recognise

[00:21:10] the bean plants as being edible food

[00:21:14] without knowing how to find the beans

[00:21:18] when they got the bean plants?

[00:21:20] And,

[00:21:21] well,

[00:21:21] I haven't got an explanation for that.

[00:21:23] So,

[00:21:23] the kids apparently

[00:21:24] ate raw beans

[00:21:26] as their only food

[00:21:27] for,

[00:21:29] I think,

[00:21:29] William in Newbury

[00:21:30] implies a month or more.

[00:21:34] They still remained green.

[00:21:36] They were still,

[00:21:37] obviously,

[00:21:37] not very ill.

[00:21:38] And the boy actually died.

[00:21:41] He was always,

[00:21:43] says William,

[00:21:44] the weakly one,

[00:21:46] the sickly one.

[00:21:49] But the girl

[00:21:50] was baptised

[00:21:52] because,

[00:21:52] obviously,

[00:21:53] that would always be a worry

[00:21:55] to medieval people

[00:21:57] whether the children

[00:21:58] were Christians or not.

[00:22:01] And it was dangerous

[00:22:03] both for the child

[00:22:04] not to be baptised

[00:22:06] because they would go straight to hell

[00:22:07] when they died

[00:22:09] if they hadn't been baptised,

[00:22:14] but also for the villagers

[00:22:17] as well

[00:22:17] and for the household

[00:22:19] because

[00:22:20] there was a fear

[00:22:21] that an un-daptised child

[00:22:23] would return as a ghost

[00:22:26] and would go around

[00:22:27] weeping and moaning

[00:22:28] and whatnot

[00:22:28] which was always

[00:22:29] a bit of a worry

[00:22:30] so a bit dangerous

[00:22:31] on both sides.

[00:22:32] So,

[00:22:32] baptised the girl

[00:22:33] so at least she's,

[00:22:35] let's see.

[00:22:35] And the girl

[00:22:38] apparently

[00:22:40] after a brother's

[00:22:42] death

[00:22:44] got used to

[00:22:46] human food,

[00:22:48] normal food,

[00:22:50] English food,

[00:22:51] whatever you like to call it,

[00:22:53] not beans.

[00:22:53] And as she weaned herself

[00:22:55] off beans

[00:22:56] she lost her green colouring

[00:22:59] and William says

[00:23:01] returned to her

[00:23:03] normal,

[00:23:04] normal sort of

[00:23:05] ruddy complexion.

[00:23:07] So both

[00:23:08] William and

[00:23:09] Rafe

[00:23:11] agree that

[00:23:12] the colour

[00:23:13] was somehow temporary.

[00:23:15] It wasn't natural.

[00:23:17] It was

[00:23:19] they became,

[00:23:20] she became just like us

[00:23:22] says William

[00:23:23] just like any

[00:23:24] normal

[00:23:25] human

[00:23:27] woman

[00:23:29] and indeed

[00:23:30] he goes on to say

[00:23:31] she eventually

[00:23:32] married a man

[00:23:33] up in Kingslyn

[00:23:34] several miles to the north

[00:23:36] and says

[00:23:38] William

[00:23:38] in 1198

[00:23:41] he understood

[00:23:42] she was still around

[00:23:43] at that time

[00:23:44] she was still alive.

[00:23:45] So if you're looking

[00:23:46] for descendants

[00:23:48] of the green children

[00:23:49] start in Kingslyn

[00:23:50] in Norfolk

[00:23:52] because

[00:23:52] that's where the family

[00:23:53] eventually finished.

[00:23:55] But in the meantime

[00:23:57] she had actually

[00:23:59] learnt

[00:24:01] English

[00:24:03] and

[00:24:05] gave

[00:24:06] a rather

[00:24:07] contradictory

[00:24:08] set of

[00:24:09] answers

[00:24:10] to questions

[00:24:11] about

[00:24:11] where

[00:24:12] the children

[00:24:13] had come from.

[00:24:20] Thanks for listening

[00:24:21] to From the Void.

[00:24:22] We'll be back next week

[00:24:23] with the conclusion

[00:24:24] of this unusual mystery

[00:24:25] of the green children

[00:24:26] of Woolpit.

[00:24:27] Until then

[00:24:27] if you enjoyed this episode

[00:24:29] or any of the prior episodes

[00:24:30] please consider rating

[00:24:31] reviewing and subscribing

[00:24:33] so you don't miss

[00:24:33] a single new episode

[00:24:34] and also sharing

[00:24:36] with a friend.

[00:24:36] We're an independent podcast

[00:24:38] and that's the best way

[00:24:39] for us to find new listeners.

[00:24:40] We'll be back next week

[00:24:42] and until then

[00:24:43] I've been your host

[00:24:44] John Williamson

[00:24:45] and you're listening

[00:24:45] to From the Void.

[00:24:47] From the Void.