(Mystery) Keith McCloskey ”The Dyatlov Pass Incident” pt. 1

[00:00:02] From the darkest reaches of space to the deepest corners of your mind. Welcome to From The Void.

[00:00:18] This week's mystery is one I've been fascinated with for a long time. Partly because it's so strange, and partly because it involves a group of young students whose lives ended before they really had a chance to begin, and whose families never really got the satisfactory answers as to why.

[00:00:35] The mystery in question is the mystery of the Dyatlov Pass, where back in 1959, 10 experienced young skiers set out on a trip to Mount Orterton in the far north of Russia.

[00:00:47] What happened to them on that journey has been the basis of rumor and speculation ever since, fueled by a strange amount of secrecy then and now.

[00:00:56] Questions still remain as to why the group seemingly cut their way out of their own tent, why the group seems to have split up with some found completely naked.

[00:01:05] What would cause a group of experienced climbers to leave their tent in such a way in freezing cold temperatures?

[00:01:11] Was it an avalanche, as some suggest?

[00:01:13] Did they wander too far into government territory and stumble upon a Cold War era experiment?

[00:01:19] Were they killed by the local natives in the area?

[00:01:22] We dive into all of that with this week's guest, author Keith McCloskey, who spent time in that very place where this tragedy took place and wrote the book, Mountain of the Dead.

[00:01:33] The Dyatlov Pass Incident on this week's mystery.

[00:01:36] The Dyatlov Pass Incident Part 1 on From the Void.

[00:01:50] All right.

[00:01:51] Welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:52] Excited to have my guest, Keith McCloskey, on today.

[00:01:54] Thank you so much for coming on the show.

[00:01:57] Thank you very much, John.

[00:01:58] I'm pleased to be here.

[00:02:00] Absolutely.

[00:02:00] So before we get into the topic at hand here, tell listeners a little bit about yourself and ultimately how you got interested in such a strange and kind of unique story.

[00:02:12] Well, it's a bit involved, really.

[00:02:16] I kind of stumbled across it years ago when I was doing some research on military history.

[00:02:25] I'm quite into Soviet military history, particularly the Air Force.

[00:02:30] And I remember reading a peculiar thing where it related to the northern urals.

[00:02:38] And it said to the strange deaths of the skiers in the mountains.

[00:02:43] And I thought, well, I wonder what that's about.

[00:02:45] So I started digging into it.

[00:02:48] And there was very little in the West about it.

[00:02:54] You know, there was no books or anything.

[00:02:58] And there was a fair amount in Russian.

[00:03:01] But nothing that I could get to grips with over, you know, on this side of the Iron Curtain, if you like.

[00:03:09] And that's how I became interested in it.

[00:03:12] And through that, I found there was a Dyatlov Foundation run by Yuri Konsevich.

[00:03:20] So I made contact with him.

[00:03:23] And, you know, obviously, he was the keeper of the Dyatlov light, if you like.

[00:03:29] And I made a couple of visits over there and, you know, went up to the Dyatlov Pass with him.

[00:03:36] And the rest is history, as they say.

[00:03:39] But it was an unusual story.

[00:03:42] And the thing I liked about it as a – I mean, I'm quite into real-life mysteries.

[00:03:48] But it's one that has got so many permutations, if you like.

[00:03:52] Like, there's so many theories that nothing answers it completely.

[00:03:58] You know, people say, oh, well, it's an avalanche.

[00:04:01] It was obviously an avalanche.

[00:04:02] But that doesn't 100% answer all the questions.

[00:04:06] Even my favorite theory is, you know, the military.

[00:04:10] Something happened to them connected with the military.

[00:04:13] But even that doesn't answer all the questions.

[00:04:15] And what I've found is you get people tend to have their pet theory and they try and shoehorn all the facts to fit it.

[00:04:25] And to me, I think you have to imagine that you're in a court defending, you know, both defending and arguing against the theory to see what the flaws in each theory are.

[00:04:41] Because I think people tend to try and ignore the flaw in any theory without examining them all.

[00:04:49] But that's what I think, you know, to me it's a bigger mystery than the Bermuda Triangle or any of them out there.

[00:04:57] I think it's the granddaddy, really.

[00:05:01] Yeah, it's truly a fascinating story.

[00:05:03] I think I first encountered it.

[00:05:05] You know, there's been a number of documentaries or documentary episodes and since, you know, some additional books written.

[00:05:14] And it really is.

[00:05:15] You're right.

[00:05:16] It's very complex.

[00:05:17] There's a lot of different nuances to this story and a lot of contributing factors that sort of lend to the mystery of it.

[00:05:24] So set the stage for listeners and, you know, for folks who aren't as familiar with it.

[00:05:29] But, you know, of course, this happens towards the beginning of the Cold War back in 1959.

[00:05:33] But it sort of set the stage for what was, you know, the area and sort of what was going on at the time.

[00:05:38] Well, it needs – it's so – the Soviet Union was such a different place to the West.

[00:05:46] You know, it was a closed society.

[00:05:51] Everything was controlled, if you like.

[00:05:54] And people over in the West don't really have a, you know, a conception of what it's like to live in that kind of society where, you know, it's full of informers.

[00:06:06] The government decides everything.

[00:06:08] You know, you can't criticize the government or the Communist Party.

[00:06:13] And I think really that they were young people, apart from one of them, who – it was called ski tourism, really.

[00:06:23] And it was really an outlet for people, you know, at university of a younger age to try and get away from it all and let their hair down and be able to try and relax.

[00:06:36] I know the idea of hiking, you know, getting your skis and going up into thick snow in the Ural Mountains isn't necessarily everybody's idea of relaxing.

[00:06:47] But it was very popular.

[00:06:49] And like I say, it was a chance for them to get away from the strictures of society.

[00:06:56] And just as a quick aside, when I went up to the Dyatlov Pass back in 2015, I went up with a group.

[00:07:05] And within that group was a girl who was – I think she was 19 or 20.

[00:07:11] She was a student in Yekaterinburg.

[00:07:14] But she had grown up a large part of her early life living, not necessarily in the wild, but her grandfather used to take her on long hunting trips.

[00:07:27] And I remember her saying to me that she needed to get into the Urals to – she only needed to spend a few months in a city or even a large town.

[00:07:38] And she'd want to get out of it.

[00:07:41] She said she only could feel that she could relax when she was, if you like, at one with nature.

[00:07:47] Maybe that's the way you're putting it.

[00:07:48] But you could see she was – she felt totally at home in the environment of the northern Urals.

[00:07:55] But like I say, her grandfather used to take her up there.

[00:07:59] And they'd spend, you know, up to five or six weeks just hunting and living off the land.

[00:08:06] And I think really what the Dyatlov group – they had a set target.

[00:08:12] They were going to Mount O'Torten and they were testing their skills, if you like.

[00:08:21] You know, to – you could call it a kind of orienteering with skis, which is what we would call it over here, orienteering.

[00:08:30] You know, their skills of endurance and skiing and hiking in difficult conditions.

[00:08:37] But it was an opportunity for them to get away from the restrictions of ordinary life back in Yekaterinburg, or Sverdlovsk, as it was called in those days.

[00:08:51] And the other thing about it, which I think a lot of people are not aware of, in the Soviet Union of those days, everything was controlled.

[00:09:03] It's not like they could say, well, we're going to pop up into the northern Urals for, you know, a bit of a party and a get-together, get away from it all.

[00:09:14] You had to have – your trip had to be approved and permits issued so that you could travel up there and then go into that area.

[00:09:23] One of the misnomers about it is after the – well, call it what you will, after the death, the accident, the area was – people say it was closed for four years.

[00:09:36] But it wasn't so much closed as no permits were issued for anybody to go there.

[00:09:42] And there's a lot of speculation about why that is.

[00:09:45] But it just highlights the issue that you couldn't go there if you wanted.

[00:09:51] You had to have a permit.

[00:09:52] And one thing that makes it a bit trickier up in that area is there's two controlled military zones.

[00:10:03] They're quite big areas, and they're not fenced off, but they're geographically zoned.

[00:10:09] And if you're found in one of them without good cause, you know, you'd probably be arrested or at least interrogated as to what you were doing there.

[00:10:19] One of them is a nuclear warhead storage area, and it covers a pretty large area.

[00:10:29] So, as I say, it's difficult to comprehend what it's like to live like that.

[00:10:36] But it was as much a test of their skills as a chance to get away and just relax amongst friends.

[00:10:44] Yeah, and one of the things I think that's important to note too is that the individuals that were a part of this group were not what we would consider like amateurs when it comes to hiking and navigating an area like this.

[00:10:58] You know, from what I can understand, they all had some sort of experience or credentials of some kind.

[00:11:04] Absolutely, yeah.

[00:11:05] They were in very good physical condition, which probably – well, they wouldn't have been able to do it if they weren't, I don't think.

[00:11:14] But they probably survived a bit longer than the average person would have done because they were in such good physical condition.

[00:11:24] Because when they left the tent, they weren't – some of them were just wearing socks on their feet, and the temperatures were minus 25 to variously minus 25 with a wind chill factor down to minus 40.

[00:11:43] And nobody will survive for long in those conditions.

[00:11:48] Yeah, talk about that a little bit, the geographical area, the Ural Mountains.

[00:11:52] They're literally – like I looked on a map to see exactly sort of the journey from point A to point B, and they're really sort of out in the middle of nowhere.

[00:12:02] Oh, it is.

[00:12:03] It is.

[00:12:03] Yeah.

[00:12:04] It really is the middle of nowhere.

[00:12:06] But I think it's – when you say mountains, people have this idea of, you know, knocking – I don't know what you call them, but rock climbing as such.

[00:12:18] You know, you've got all these ropes and everything.

[00:12:20] It's not like that.

[00:12:21] It's more of a – I would say a strenuous hike.

[00:12:26] The mountains – there's a couple of them that are fairly steep.

[00:12:30] I mean, call that Siakl, the dead mountain itself.

[00:12:34] Towards the top it gets quite steep, but most of it, it's hilly without what I would call having to do any pure rock climbing.

[00:12:46] But you've got to be in very good condition to do it because, you know, you need to keep up with the group.

[00:12:53] And it's – there's all sorts of rocks there.

[00:13:00] And, you know, when I walk down from where the tent was to the tree line, there's rocks – it's like seas of rock, you could call it.

[00:13:08] And you've got to be very careful when you're walking across them.

[00:13:11] Otherwise, you'd break an ankle or hurt yourself because the rocks give way.

[00:13:17] Albeit when they were doing it, it was in snow.

[00:13:19] But hiking through snow is just as hard anyway.

[00:13:24] You know, they have their skis.

[00:13:27] And when they're going through it, you walk in a line.

[00:13:32] You're walking in a line.

[00:13:34] And it is so strenuous for the person at the front basically beating down the path that he would do it for 20 minutes, 30 minutes.

[00:13:44] And then he would go to the back of the line and follow the others.

[00:13:50] And that's how they would proceed because having done – you know, having knocked the path in front of you, which is hard work, you can only do it for so long.

[00:14:01] And then you go to the back.

[00:14:02] And although you're still going along, you're going down a – you're going along a path that the eight people in front of you have knocked it down for you.

[00:14:11] So it's not quite such quite hard work.

[00:14:13] But hard work it is.

[00:14:16] Yeah, that's – you know, I just can imagine the level of strain just to make that journey.

[00:14:23] And originally there were actually – there was actually a tenth individual, correct?

[00:14:27] Yes.

[00:14:28] Yeah, Yuri Udin.

[00:14:30] Yeah, he had – he was ill.

[00:14:35] And he basically turned around before they got to the mountain and returned back to Sverdlovsk.

[00:14:46] There was actually 11, believe it or not.

[00:14:48] They were going to be joined in Sverdlovsk by an 11th character who used to be known by them all as – he was nicknamed the Morose Fellow because he was quite a miserable.

[00:15:00] And apparently he turned up too late to travel with them, probably just as well for him.

[00:15:07] So there would have been 11 of them originally.

[00:15:09] But in the event, there was 10 with Yuri Udin.

[00:15:13] And Udin turned around, again, saving his life really because he would have gone with the rest of them.

[00:15:21] And the other nine continued.

[00:15:24] Yeah, so talk about the nine who would eventually, you know, make up the trip there.

[00:15:28] You know, these were largely young, you know, students it sounds like.

[00:15:32] Yeah, they were all students.

[00:15:34] And with the exception of one who, again, when you get into the theories, Zolotariev, he was in his late 30s.

[00:15:44] And there's all sorts of speculation about him, the mere fact that he was much older than the rest of them.

[00:15:52] I mean, he was – well, he was old enough to be the dad of them, you know, the father of some of them.

[00:15:59] And people have speculated as to why he was on it.

[00:16:03] But he was basically a ski tourist like them.

[00:16:12] And he wanted to go on the journey.

[00:16:15] There's some speculation that he had the hots for one of the two females, which is always possible,

[00:16:21] even if he was old enough to be her father.

[00:16:24] But his background was – he'd been in the army.

[00:16:31] He'd fought at Stalingrad.

[00:16:33] So he was obviously quite a tough cookie, as it were.

[00:16:38] And very fit, despite his being twice the age almost of the rest of them.

[00:16:43] But he was still in very good condition.

[00:16:46] But there's a lot of speculation.

[00:16:48] There's thought – there's some speculation that he was probably a member of the KGB, the secret police,

[00:16:56] or he was – that they were meeting up with spies up in the mountains to transfer nuclear materials.

[00:17:07] And that he was involved with that.

[00:17:10] You know, it goes into all sorts of theories.

[00:17:14] And each theory you go into goes off in a fork and then another fork as to what's behind it all.

[00:17:21] But, yeah, they were all just students, quite very intelligent people,

[00:17:28] and in the prime of their lives, basically.

[00:17:32] Yeah, and obviously the incident is named after the leader of the group, Igor Dyatlov.

[00:17:40] And he's sort of leading the group.

[00:17:43] And so they start to take this journey.

[00:17:47] And, again, this wasn't their first sort of trip like this before.

[00:17:52] You know, from what I understand, they were all what they consider like grade 2 or level 2 hikers with ski tour experience.

[00:17:59] And we're sort of using this trip as a way to qualify for grade 3 or whatever that looks like.

[00:18:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:18:08] I mean, it's – I think the crux of it all was where they were because some – I mean, it's strange as to the position of where they put the tent.

[00:18:26] You know, many people have said, why didn't they put the tent down at the tree line,

[00:18:33] which would have made it – you know, would have been sheltered and all the rest of it.

[00:18:38] Where they put it was not actually on the mountain itself.

[00:18:41] It was on a spur that comes out from the mountain.

[00:18:44] And it was near the top of that spur.

[00:18:49] But people have said, well, why did Igor Dyatlov decide that they were going to pitch the tent there?

[00:18:55] And it's been suggested that he wanted to give them the maximum training, if you like,

[00:19:03] or test their skills to the utmost by hiking up there, putting the tent in an awkward location,

[00:19:10] and seeing how they all coped with it, which is possible.

[00:19:14] But it probably wasn't the best location.

[00:19:17] And people have speculated as to why he did that.

[00:19:19] Well, why would he put it there?

[00:19:21] Then you run into another theory of that they were killed somewhere else,

[00:19:26] and their bodies were put there in the tent.

[00:19:29] But even that doesn't make a lot of sense either.

[00:19:31] But it has – you know, there's people that subscribe to that view.

[00:19:36] Yeah, it definitely – there's definitely some strange mysteries that, you know,

[00:19:41] unfortunately, due to the fact that we have no surviving members of the party,

[00:19:45] it's sort of hard to say.

[00:19:46] So talk a little bit about – that's a good place to transition to what evidence was left behind.

[00:19:53] But I guess before we get to that, sort of talk through – you know,

[00:19:57] they leave from their kind of launching off point, and they're traveling up the mountain.

[00:20:01] As you said, they did obviously stop at some point to create their sort of base camp

[00:20:06] or pitch their tent.

[00:20:09] So talk a little bit about, you know, sort of that part of the journey

[00:20:12] and what we know based off of the evidence.

[00:20:15] Yeah, well, the base camp basically – we camped there.

[00:20:21] When we hiked up, we passed through a Mansi village called Ushma,

[00:20:28] and we were taken a bit further by one of these four-wheel drive Soviet – old Soviet-type trucks.

[00:20:36] And then we had to hike from there.

[00:20:39] And hiking through there, as I say, I went in the summer,

[00:20:44] which is just as bad, believe it or not, as doing it in the winter with snow.

[00:20:49] It's hard enough doing it through snow.

[00:20:51] But one thing it does in the Urals is it rains all the time nearly.

[00:20:55] It just rains and rains and rains.

[00:20:57] And everywhere, there's mud all over the place.

[00:21:01] And you can sink into the mud right up to your waist almost if you put a foot wrong in these mud pools.

[00:21:10] So anyway, they went up to where they made their base camp and put a storage,

[00:21:15] a labaz, to store some items for the next stage of their journey.

[00:21:22] But we camped at that very location before we went up to the mountain the following day.

[00:21:30] And it seemed to me that it was an ideal location because it was a fairly flat, open area,

[00:21:36] but surrounded completely by trees and, you know, by the forest all around it.

[00:21:43] But it was a good spot because it was sheltered.

[00:21:46] And it would have made sense to have probably stayed put there,

[00:21:51] gone up over the pass itself and then down the other side

[00:21:56] and continued along the river up to Mount O'Torton,

[00:22:01] which was their eventual destination.

[00:22:04] But for some reason, once they went up that mountain to where they pitched the tent,

[00:22:11] as I say, it just seems to defy logic as to why they did it.

[00:22:17] When really they should have just stayed put where they were

[00:22:21] and then started moving the next day without having to go up onto that part,

[00:22:26] onto that ridge where they put the tent.

[00:22:31] Yeah.

[00:22:31] So talk about initially, you know, we're talking about, you know,

[00:22:37] a time period obviously well before cell phones and satellite phones

[00:22:40] and that sort of thing.

[00:22:41] So they had sort of committed to sending a telegram back, you know,

[00:22:46] once they completed this journey.

[00:22:49] And so obviously, you know, there's some leeway there because, you know,

[00:22:53] the trip may take slightly longer than they expected and so on and so forth.

[00:22:57] So people weren't initially concerned.

[00:22:59] But then obviously some time passes and the families start to get nervous.

[00:23:02] And then what takes place after that?

[00:23:05] Well, the families were starting to get worried.

[00:23:10] Igor Dyatlov was supposed to send the telegram when they got back to Ivdel.

[00:23:15] And when nothing arrived, they left it for a few days.

[00:23:18] And people started pressing to, you know, the university and the local authorities

[00:23:26] for, well, basically to find out what the hell was going on

[00:23:30] because they hadn't heard anything.

[00:23:31] You can imagine, as you just said, you have to allow a little amount of time.

[00:23:36] But it was a matter of a couple of weeks before they got really going

[00:23:40] and it was decided that as they hadn't come back that, you know,

[00:23:45] search parties would have to start looking for them.

[00:23:51] The whole thing that comes out, though, when you're looking at that period is

[00:23:56] I can understand people, you know, say, well, give them a bit of time.

[00:24:01] Maybe they decided to go a bit further, although they shouldn't have done

[00:24:05] or gone deviated from their route.

[00:24:08] But you have to allow a certain amount of time for them to –

[00:24:12] it's not like we'll meet you at 12 o'clock back in Svartlosk under the clock sort of thing.

[00:24:18] You have to allow a certain number of days.

[00:24:21] And I always think from what I've read about the communist system

[00:24:24] and the way things work is, you know, if it isn't done today, it'll be done tomorrow.

[00:24:30] So I think people read something into that period of where nothing was happening

[00:24:35] despite the agitation, if you like, of the friends and relatives, you know,

[00:24:40] the families getting worried.

[00:24:42] But there's always a bit of lethargy in the system.

[00:24:48] And I think that was part of the reason why.

[00:24:51] I don't think that the authorities in Svartlosk had any idea that they were all dead

[00:24:59] because that's what it suggests.

[00:25:01] It suggests that nothing was done because they knew what happened to them.

[00:25:05] And I don't necessarily believe that.

[00:25:07] But I think it was just more like couldn't be bothered until they were really pushed.

[00:25:14] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:25:16] So when they eventually do go out to look for them, they don't find the entire group at first.

[00:25:21] So talk through sort of what do they initially discover and then what happens from there?

[00:25:27] Well, the first five bodies were found relatively quickly.

[00:25:33] The first two were found under the cedar tree and they were almost stripped naked,

[00:25:39] which people started reading stuff into that because, you know,

[00:25:43] they were, well, why didn't they have their clothes?

[00:25:45] But basically they had died first and their clothes were taken by the living to try.

[00:25:52] One of the females, Luda, she was wearing some of the clothes of one of the dead men

[00:25:58] that were found by the cedar tree.

[00:26:02] But when those two bodies were found, it was seen that they tried to light a fire

[00:26:10] and that their hands, they'd been putting their hands into the flames

[00:26:15] and to try and keep warm.

[00:26:19] And that there were marks on the tree where they'd gone up to try and cut down branches

[00:26:25] or, you know, some of the smaller branches to try and get a real fire going.

[00:26:32] But it was all a bit too late, really.

[00:26:34] And then after that, they found the bodies of Igor Dyatlov,

[00:26:40] the other girl, Zina, and Rustem Slobodin.

[00:26:45] And they were in a kind of a line.

[00:26:49] And I remember when I came down from where the tent was located,

[00:26:54] they were almost equidistant from each other.

[00:26:58] There was about 100 yards between Igor Dyatlov,

[00:27:05] then up to Zina and Rustem.

[00:27:09] I think Zina was the closest.

[00:27:11] And they'd almost, they were in a line, almost as if a long line,

[00:27:18] making their way back to the tent and just didn't make it, you know,

[00:27:23] succumbed to the cold.

[00:27:26] They must have realised the moment they left the tent that they were in mortal danger

[00:27:32] because they'd left their security.

[00:27:34] And I think whatever made them leave the tent,

[00:27:38] they obviously felt that they had to go back to try and retrieve what they could from it

[00:27:44] to basically keep them alive.

[00:27:47] Yeah, I definitely want to come back to what you just mentioned about them sort of being spread out.

[00:27:53] So, but before we get into that, you know,

[00:27:56] what's kind of initially interesting is because they find, you know,

[00:28:00] sort of the group split in half, they find the initial individuals much,

[00:28:05] much earlier than the rest of the group.

[00:28:08] It's, I think, what, two months span between when they find the initial members of the group

[00:28:14] and the rest.

[00:28:15] And so by this point, you know,

[00:28:16] they've been obviously exposed to the elements for some time.

[00:28:21] So talk a little bit about, obviously, you know,

[00:28:25] they go to try to investigate, as you mentioned, law enforcement,

[00:28:28] the military becomes involved.

[00:28:30] And so what we know so far is they've got the tent,

[00:28:35] but there's something unusual about the tent.

[00:28:37] They notice that there is a cut in the side of the tent.

[00:28:40] Talk about that.

[00:28:41] Yeah, well, there's the key to the whole mystery,

[00:28:45] is what made them leave the tent.

[00:28:50] Those tents, people say, oh, you just have to unzip it,

[00:28:54] but they weren't zips with those tents.

[00:28:57] In fact, the tent itself had been customised by Igor Dyatlov.

[00:29:02] It was two tents joined together so they could all fit in it.

[00:29:08] But it was buttons.

[00:29:10] And with the canvas fabric, it was,

[00:29:14] I'm not saying they were difficult to open,

[00:29:16] but in an emergency, it was easier to slash your way with a knife

[00:29:21] to get out of the tent.

[00:29:23] And it had an inner kind of lining as well.

[00:29:26] So you'd have to move the inner lining where the entrance was,

[00:29:30] then undo the buttons.

[00:29:31] And if obviously every second counted

[00:29:34] and whatever happened to them was life-threatening,

[00:29:37] then slashing your way out is the easiest and the quickest way out.

[00:29:41] But there's the key.

[00:29:43] What made them do that?

[00:29:45] What made them slash their way out of that tent to get away from it?

[00:29:50] And then you run into the next, what's the word, curiosity,

[00:29:56] if that's the word.

[00:29:57] They didn't run.

[00:29:59] All the footsteps, the footprints in the snow showed that they were walking.

[00:30:05] So why was it an emergency to get out of the tent

[00:30:09] and then walk away from it?

[00:30:11] You would think they would have run.

[00:30:13] That's the peculiar thing.

[00:30:23] Thanks for listening to this week's episode of From the Void.

[00:30:26] We'll be back next week with part two of this exciting mystery.

[00:30:30] But until then, please consider rating, reviewing,

[00:30:33] and subscribing to the show and sharing with a friend.

[00:30:35] It helps us get the word out.

[00:30:38] Also check out our brand new website,

[00:30:39] www.fromthevoidpod.com

[00:30:43] for all things From the Void

[00:30:44] and previews of this special project we're working on for the fall.

[00:30:47] So until next week, I've been your host, John Williamson,

[00:30:51] and you've been listening to From the Void.