Welcome to the finale with Nora Creech as we delve into the enigmatic Shroud of Turin. This episode unravels the complexities surrounding the controversial radiocarbon dating tests conducted in 1988, which declared the Shroud a medieval forgery. Discover the scientific disputes and alternate dating methods now pointing to a much older origin, possibly aligning with the time of Jesus.
Join us as we explore the significant intersections of history, faith, and science, and consider how evolving technology might unravel further truths about its authenticity and historical importance. Whether it stands as a testament to Jesus Christ's burial cloth or as an artifact of faith, the Shroud continues to intrigue and inspire many across disciplines.
00:00:01 --> 00:00:07 From the darkest reaches of space, to the deepest corners of your mind,
00:00:08 --> 00:00:11 welcome to From the Void.
00:00:15 --> 00:00:19 Welcome to From the Void. We're back with the conclusion of my interview with
00:00:19 --> 00:00:22 Nora Creech, where we discuss the mystery of the Shroud of Turin.
00:00:22 --> 00:00:26 If you haven't heard the first part yet, hit pause and listen to last week's
00:00:26 --> 00:00:29 episode first. If you've already heard it, then welcome back,
00:00:29 --> 00:00:33 and welcome to this week's mystery, part two, and the conclusion of the mystery
00:00:33 --> 00:00:37 of the Shroud of Turin on From the Void.
00:00:37 --> 00:00:46 Music.
00:00:46 --> 00:00:50 Interesting. So, obviously, they even knew at that moment that,
00:00:50 --> 00:00:53 hey, you know, we're doing the best we can with the technology we have at our
00:00:53 --> 00:00:56 disposal as of 1970, you know, whatever.
00:00:56 --> 00:01:02 Knowing that, you know, obviously the scientific equipment available to them will advance over time.
00:01:02 --> 00:01:08 And so what is the next sort of study or tests that are conducted after that initial group?
00:01:09 --> 00:01:12 So the next step was in 1988.
00:01:13 --> 00:01:19 There was a team put together to make recommendations for doing a radiocarbon dating test.
00:01:19 --> 00:01:24 And the goal of that test was to ascertain the age of the fabric.
00:01:24 --> 00:01:28 Because, as we've said, the provenance of the fabric is murky.
00:01:29 --> 00:01:34 And so the radiocarbon dating is the gold standard for dating an archaeological object.
00:01:35 --> 00:01:37 And so the team made recommendations.
00:01:37 --> 00:01:42 At that time, there was a new method of radiocarbon dating and an older method.
00:01:43 --> 00:01:45 They recommended that both methods be used.
00:01:45 --> 00:01:50 They also recommended that seven different laboratories be used with blind testing
00:01:50 --> 00:01:53 so that they could get the best results possible.
00:01:54 --> 00:01:58 And then the most important thing they recommended is that the samples that
00:01:58 --> 00:02:02 were utilized by the seven different laboratories be taken from seven different
00:02:02 --> 00:02:03 locations on the shroud.
00:02:04 --> 00:02:06 So, not just from one spot.
00:02:06 --> 00:02:12 But in the end, none of these recommendations were followed. So, yeah.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:17 As I told you, when they did the test in 1978, they photographed the shroud
00:02:17 --> 00:02:22 using a lot of different kinds of lighting, and one of the lightings that they
00:02:22 --> 00:02:23 used was an ultraviolet light.
00:02:25 --> 00:02:31 It shows the chemical composition in colors, and when you look at the image
00:02:31 --> 00:02:35 of the area that they chose to sample for the radiocarbon dating,
00:02:35 --> 00:02:39 you can see it's an entirely different color than the rest of the shroud fabric.
00:02:39 --> 00:02:46 So they picked an area that had been, it was an area that had been handled a lot in the past.
00:02:46 --> 00:02:50 And it's thought that that area had been repaired in the past.
00:02:51 --> 00:02:58 And they cut a small piece, one piece, and then they cut the piece into different sections.
00:02:58 --> 00:03:04 So, I mean, even a middle school student knows that if you cut one piece and
00:03:04 --> 00:03:07 cut it up into different samples, it's still just one sample.
00:03:07 --> 00:03:12 And so they did not follow the protocol that had been outlined at all.
00:03:12 --> 00:03:20 So the small piece was cut up into four smaller pieces, about the size of a postage stamp.
00:03:20 --> 00:03:24 And one piece was kept as a reserve for like a control.
00:03:24 --> 00:03:29 And then the other three pieces were sent to three different laboratories. not seven.
00:03:29 --> 00:03:33 They all used only one form of the radiocarbon dating.
00:03:33 --> 00:03:40 And the range of dates, possible dates for the Shroud came up between 1260 and
00:03:40 --> 00:03:44 1390, which was Middle Ages.
00:03:44 --> 00:03:49 And also coincidentally, around that range includes the time when the Shroud
00:03:49 --> 00:03:52 was first discovered in history, in written history as well.
00:03:53 --> 00:03:57 So at that time, there were headlines all around the world that said,
00:03:57 --> 00:03:59 Shroud of Turin, proven to be a fake.
00:04:00 --> 00:04:05 And I remember it very clearly because it was such devastating news. It.
00:04:05 --> 00:04:11 And it seems so definitive, like, well, here's the answer. This is a medieval forgery.
00:04:12 --> 00:04:17 And so for about 10 years, the whole shroud world kind of, I think we were in mourning.
00:04:18 --> 00:04:20 It was a very quiet time.
00:04:21 --> 00:04:25 And then slowly people started questioning this radiocarbon dating.
00:04:25 --> 00:04:27 Well, what about the area where it was sampled?
00:04:27 --> 00:04:33 Why didn't they follow the protocol? And so these questions started to emerge.
00:04:33 --> 00:04:37 And now it's in
00:04:37 --> 00:04:40 2017 a researcher asked for
00:04:40 --> 00:04:43 the use the freedom of information law
00:04:43 --> 00:04:46 and got the raw data from each
00:04:46 --> 00:04:50 one of these laboratories that did the radiocarbon dating and
00:04:50 --> 00:04:57 when he was able to statistically analyze the raw data what he discovered is
00:04:57 --> 00:05:05 that there's a very big difference between one edge of the sample to just two
00:05:05 --> 00:05:09 millimeters away or two centimeters away for the other sample.
00:05:10 --> 00:05:15 There's a 200-year difference in that sample. And.
00:05:15 --> 00:05:20 One sample should be homogenous and not have that difference in the date range.
00:05:20 --> 00:05:28 So a publication published in 2019, it was actually the same publication that
00:05:28 --> 00:05:33 published the original 1988 carbon dating published in 2019 said,
00:05:33 --> 00:05:38 we can conclude now that the sample that was tested was not homogenous,
00:05:38 --> 00:05:43 meaning it wasn't the same throughout the sample, and therefore not representative
00:05:43 --> 00:05:46 of the fabric, the entire fabric of the shroud.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:51 So that is a test that we can just set aside.
00:05:51 --> 00:05:58 It might have been done perfectly well, and all of the labs may have been absolutely
00:05:58 --> 00:06:02 perfect in how they conducted the study, but the sample itself was not representative
00:06:02 --> 00:06:04 of the entire piece of fabric.
00:06:05 --> 00:06:09 And so we can set the radiocarbon dating aside.
00:06:09 --> 00:06:15 So where does that leave us in terms of the date of the fabric itself?
00:06:15 --> 00:06:21 So there have been other researchers who have proposed different ways of dating the fabric itself.
00:06:22 --> 00:06:25 The one that you mentioned that's been in the news recently was done,
00:06:25 --> 00:06:30 I believe in 2022, and it's now become available in the news.
00:06:31 --> 00:06:37 And so they're using different ways of measuring the lignin that remains in
00:06:37 --> 00:06:41 the flax because they know the rate at which it decays over time.
00:06:42 --> 00:06:48 And so they can look at the lignin that's remaining to understand how old the fabric is.
00:06:48 --> 00:06:51 So these new studies, and there's some other different studies that are being
00:06:51 --> 00:06:57 conducted as well, they are indicating the age of the fabric itself is somewhere
00:06:57 --> 00:07:00 between 50 BC and 100 to 200 AD,
00:07:01 --> 00:07:07 which of course the life and death and resurrection of Jesus is right in the middle of that range.
00:07:08 --> 00:07:11 Yeah that's that's really interesting and it it's it
00:07:11 --> 00:07:14 it must be as someone who is you know
00:07:14 --> 00:07:17 you know well versed in the the
00:07:17 --> 00:07:23 shroud of turin kind of frustrating when like some very clear i think guidance
00:07:23 --> 00:07:27 was suggested that that it sounds you know like that's the way to go that's
00:07:27 --> 00:07:33 clearly like we need to it kind of flushes out any potential error or any question
00:07:33 --> 00:07:36 because you're taking multiple samples from multiple different areas.
00:07:36 --> 00:07:38 And we know historically, as
00:07:38 --> 00:07:44 you mentioned earlier, that there were likely some repairs done over time.
00:07:44 --> 00:07:49 There was, I believe, a fire at some point and some melted silver ended up burning
00:07:49 --> 00:07:51 some holes through it. And so we know some patches were put in place.
00:07:51 --> 00:07:57 And so like, given the history of it, of what we know, it seems that yes,
00:07:57 --> 00:08:01 like you would have to be very careful when scientifically testing it to,
00:08:01 --> 00:08:04 you know, to take that into consideration when you're testing.
00:08:05 --> 00:08:09 So that must have been highly frustrating. And it remains highly frustrating
00:08:09 --> 00:08:13 because still to this day, if you do a Google search on the shroud,
00:08:14 --> 00:08:19 you will get results that say, radiocarbon dating shows it's a medieval forgery.
00:08:19 --> 00:08:24 And so, I mean, that's completely erroneous that that has been set aside.
00:08:24 --> 00:08:30 And I don't even like using that word forgery because there were copies of the
00:08:30 --> 00:08:32 shroud that were made in the Middle Ages.
00:08:32 --> 00:08:38 And I think you mentioned earlier about the Bishop of Troy and the Pope and
00:08:38 --> 00:08:43 the anti-Pope, the Avignon Pope, and perhaps they were looking at copies of the Shroud.
00:08:43 --> 00:08:47 They might not have been done for wicked or evil reasons. They might have been
00:08:47 --> 00:08:52 done for devotional reasons, so to make a copy of something that could be put
00:08:52 --> 00:08:54 in a church for devotional reasons.
00:08:55 --> 00:08:59 So I don't even like using the word forgery, but it's,
00:09:00 --> 00:09:03 If there was a medieval copy made,
00:09:03 --> 00:09:10 it clearly was meant to point to the suffering and death of Jesus because of
00:09:10 --> 00:09:15 all of the coincidences, I'm putting coincidences in quotation marks, with the narratives,
00:09:15 --> 00:09:18 the gospel narratives about the passion and death of Jesus.
00:09:20 --> 00:09:23 Yeah. So I think it's interesting. I mean, it just goes to show it's a great
00:09:23 --> 00:09:29 example of how just quickly technology has advanced over the last hundred years,
00:09:29 --> 00:09:34 just from the seventies till, you know, the late two thousands and, and, and so on.
00:09:34 --> 00:09:38 And so, you know, no doubt they will continue to, to develop technology in such
00:09:38 --> 00:09:42 a way that, you know, they can conduct additional tests down the road and do so in a way.
00:09:43 --> 00:09:46 Cause I think one of the biggest struggles that I have as somebody who's a great
00:09:46 --> 00:09:51 lover of history is so often these, these tests that we historically have access
00:09:51 --> 00:09:56 to result in at least some damaging of the material itself that it's testing.
00:09:56 --> 00:10:00 And so there's this kind of give and take in terms of like, well,
00:10:00 --> 00:10:04 we want to know the answers, but we also have to acknowledge the fact that we
00:10:04 --> 00:10:08 are going to have to destroy a certain piece of this fabric.
00:10:08 --> 00:10:12 But yet, as we know, we've seen throughout history, just in terms of the advancement
00:10:12 --> 00:10:14 of like DNA testing, for example,
00:10:14 --> 00:10:17 and when it comes to like crime scenes and things like that,
00:10:17 --> 00:10:24 that it's continued to advance to the point where that's no longer as much the case anymore.
00:10:24 --> 00:10:29 And so talk about maybe some of the most recent studies that have been done.
00:10:29 --> 00:10:33 And also, I'm kind of also fascinated by the fact that if we've got blood stains
00:10:33 --> 00:10:38 potentially on the clot, that feels like it should be fairly easy to test, right?
00:10:39 --> 00:10:46 So you raise a lot of really great issues. The first one is about that any destructive
00:10:46 --> 00:10:49 testing, we want to avoid that.
00:10:49 --> 00:10:52 We don't want to do anything that could potentially damage or harm the shroud
00:10:52 --> 00:10:56 in any way. We want to make sure it's available for all future generations.
00:10:57 --> 00:11:02 And so the testing needs to be very conservative and protective of the shroud.
00:11:02 --> 00:11:06 So those additional tests that I mentioned that are being conducted,
00:11:06 --> 00:11:12 they're all using techniques that are not destructive. And.
00:11:12 --> 00:11:17 As far as I know, there has been no collection of any additional samples of
00:11:17 --> 00:11:20 any material from the shroud since 1988.
00:11:20 --> 00:11:27 The possible exception to that is in 2002, there was a restoration performed on the shroud.
00:11:27 --> 00:11:34 And so as you mentioned, it was in a terrible fire in 1532, and the shroud was
00:11:34 --> 00:11:41 inside of a silver reliquary box, and the fire was so hot that some of the metal from that box melted.
00:11:42 --> 00:11:46 And the shroud was folded up and some of that molten silver or molten metal
00:11:46 --> 00:11:51 dropped on the shroud fabric and burned holes all the way through it.
00:11:51 --> 00:11:56 And then also there are singes that go along the areas where the shroud was folded.
00:11:57 --> 00:12:01 And as I mentioned, when you look at the shroud, those are the things that really catch your eye.
00:12:01 --> 00:12:07 And in the photographs from 1978, those big old patches that were sewn on in
00:12:07 --> 00:12:10 1534 are very evident in the photographs.
00:12:11 --> 00:12:22 So in 2002, there was a lot of concern that there were ash and cinders trapped in the patches.
00:12:23 --> 00:12:28 And so the patches were very, very carefully removed and the areas of the fabric
00:12:28 --> 00:12:30 that were singed were cut away.
00:12:30 --> 00:12:36 And so all of those little pieces were preserved so that they would be available for future testing.
00:12:37 --> 00:12:42 So that has been removed from the shroud since 1988. But as far as I know,
00:12:42 --> 00:12:46 no other pieces have been removed from the shroud for additional testing.
00:12:47 --> 00:12:51 That's why I keep saying there really hasn't been a multidisciplinary study
00:12:51 --> 00:12:53 of the shroud since 1978.
00:12:54 --> 00:12:59 So people who are doing studies today, They're either using materials that were
00:12:59 --> 00:13:02 gathered 2002 or before,
00:13:02 --> 00:13:08 or they're just using things like photographs and slides and things like that
00:13:08 --> 00:13:10 that are available to people.
00:13:11 --> 00:13:14 Yeah, that's still very interesting because, again, as technology evolves,
00:13:14 --> 00:13:19 we have different tests at our disposal that we didn't before that could lend
00:13:19 --> 00:13:22 some credence to the Shroud.
00:13:22 --> 00:13:27 So what are the most recent tests that they've done and what are some of the
00:13:27 --> 00:13:28 conclusions that they've come up with?
00:13:29 --> 00:13:34 Well, I kind of keep skirting around the most recent tests because they did
00:13:34 --> 00:13:38 do some tests in 2002 and they've been widely reported.
00:13:38 --> 00:13:45 But they also made a lot of big assumptions about the control for the shroud
00:13:45 --> 00:13:48 during the time to draw the conclusions that they made.
00:13:48 --> 00:13:53 And so I think I'd just like to say I think further tests need to be done.
00:13:53 --> 00:13:58 And I think they also need to be peer-reviewed in the scientific community.
00:13:59 --> 00:14:04 And they need to make sure that the assumptions that they're making are valid.
00:14:05 --> 00:14:10 So just as an example, in one of the tests, they were making assumptions that
00:14:10 --> 00:14:15 the shroud was kept in a temperature-controlled environment for the entirety
00:14:15 --> 00:14:20 of its existence. And so that's probably not a good assumption.
00:14:20 --> 00:14:26 So that affects the validity of any conclusions that you make.
00:14:26 --> 00:14:31 Yeah, very much so. And yeah, it just feels like we see some of the mistakes
00:14:31 --> 00:14:35 that were made in the past, you know, some of the suggestions that were not followed.
00:14:35 --> 00:14:38 And it feels like, oh, this would be pretty easy to rectify,
00:14:38 --> 00:14:43 you know, in a future study with the right people in place. And again,
00:14:43 --> 00:14:44 the right controls in place.
00:14:45 --> 00:14:49 So one of the questions I think I have is, you know, is it possible for,
00:14:49 --> 00:14:56 I guess, the shroud to still have a role for the faithful, regardless of its authenticity?
00:14:56 --> 00:14:59 Because I think at the end of the day, sometimes it's, you know,
00:14:59 --> 00:15:07 we talk about legends a lot on this podcast, and sometimes getting to the historical truth,
00:15:07 --> 00:15:13 sort of takes away from the power behind that legend and the positive effect
00:15:13 --> 00:15:18 it may have on the people who are listening and recounting this story.
00:15:18 --> 00:15:22 And so is that, do you feel like that's something that would be true for the
00:15:22 --> 00:15:25 Shroud as well, or is it important to authenticate?
00:15:26 --> 00:15:32 So I have two responses to that. One is we've been talking about one test,
00:15:32 --> 00:15:36 the radiocarbon dating test to date the age of the linen fabric.
00:15:37 --> 00:15:42 That's one test that we can set aside. There are a multitude of other tests
00:15:42 --> 00:15:44 that point to the authenticity of the shroud.
00:15:44 --> 00:15:51 In fact, the preponderance of the evidence about the shroud is significant so
00:15:51 --> 00:15:58 that we can—I feel like we can say with a lot of comfort that this is the authentic
00:15:58 --> 00:16:01 burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth.
00:16:01 --> 00:16:07 So because of the preponderance of all of the other evidence and that totally
00:16:07 --> 00:16:12 outweighs the few things that you could bring up from a skeptical point of view.
00:16:12 --> 00:16:16 So that's one thing from kind of more of a scientific point of view.
00:16:16 --> 00:16:20 But I think the question that you're asking is to get out, what is the relevance
00:16:20 --> 00:16:21 of this to people of faith?
00:16:22 --> 00:16:26 And actually, that's my favorite part of talking about the shroud,
00:16:26 --> 00:16:33 because it is such a way to access what Jesus suffered for us,
00:16:33 --> 00:16:36 because the Gospels are very vague.
00:16:36 --> 00:16:41 And I actually just went to a lecture last night where they were showing a piece
00:16:41 --> 00:16:45 of art that they said was the very first time they think the crucifixion of
00:16:45 --> 00:16:48 Jesus was depicted in art. It was very small.
00:16:48 --> 00:16:56 And it was in the fifth century before Jesus was ever depicted as crucified.
00:16:57 --> 00:17:00 And the lecture was by Bishop Barron.
00:17:00 --> 00:17:06 And what he was saying was that the institutional knowledge of people was so—
00:17:06 --> 00:17:12 And crucifixion was a part of their knowledge of their ancestry,
00:17:12 --> 00:17:16 and it was so gruesome and so cruel and so violent that they did not want to
00:17:16 --> 00:17:18 remember it. They did not want to replicate it.
00:17:18 --> 00:17:23 But starting in about the 5th century, that was starting to be lost,
00:17:23 --> 00:17:27 and so crucifixion was beginning to be depicted in artwork.
00:17:28 --> 00:17:32 And that was very revelatory to me, because I've always wondered,
00:17:32 --> 00:17:34 like, why are the Gospels so vague?
00:17:34 --> 00:17:40 They say Pontius Pilate condemned Jesus to death and handed him over to be crucified.
00:17:40 --> 00:17:46 And not much more. I mean, we get that he handed him over to be scourged,
00:17:46 --> 00:17:48 and then they led him out to the place of execution.
00:17:48 --> 00:17:51 But they don't tell us, what was that scourging like?
00:17:52 --> 00:17:58 What was crucifixion like? And people didn't know after Constantine outlawed
00:17:58 --> 00:18:03 crucifixion with the Edict of Milan, we didn't know what crucifixion meant and
00:18:03 --> 00:18:05 we didn't know how it was carried out.
00:18:05 --> 00:18:11 And so in the artwork of the Middle Ages, we have the nails going through the palms of the hands.
00:18:11 --> 00:18:17 And we know now from studies done on the shroud that the nail wounds,
00:18:17 --> 00:18:21 actually the exit wound was the wrist because the palms were not sufficient
00:18:21 --> 00:18:25 to hold the body weight of a human form.
00:18:25 --> 00:18:33 So I'm bringing all of this up because the shroud gives us a way to access what Jesus endured.
00:18:34 --> 00:18:41 And it gives us a way to ponder on his suffering and not to be morbid,
00:18:41 --> 00:18:47 but to really understand what Jesus took on for us, what our salvation means.
00:18:47 --> 00:18:56 And when people start learning about what Jesus incurred in that agony,
00:18:56 --> 00:19:00 it's very moving, and it's also very personal.
00:19:01 --> 00:19:07 And then we see this body of Jesus being wrapped in this very valuable,
00:19:07 --> 00:19:12 priceless piece of fabric, and we see him being buried in a tomb, a new tomb.
00:19:12 --> 00:19:19 So he's died this terrible, ignominious death, but then he's being treated like
00:19:19 --> 00:19:25 the precious king and priest and prophet that we know from our faith that he is.
00:19:25 --> 00:19:32 And then we have this mysterious, miraculous image that cannot be explained by science.
00:19:33 --> 00:19:39 And it leads you to the only natural explanation is it must have been formed
00:19:39 --> 00:19:44 at the moment of his resurrection. That is the only explanation,
00:19:44 --> 00:19:47 in my mind, for how this image could be on there.
00:19:47 --> 00:19:54 And so it's a journey. It's a journey going down into the depths of the suffering that Jesus endured,
00:19:55 --> 00:20:01 waiting patiently through the Sabbath in this time of quiet and mourning,
00:20:01 --> 00:20:08 and then this victorious triumph on Easter Sunday and this miraculous resurrection
00:20:08 --> 00:20:11 that left this image behind.
00:20:11 --> 00:20:17 That gives us such an entryway into understanding our faith.
00:20:18 --> 00:20:22 Yeah, it is interesting. I kind of go back and forth often when it comes to
00:20:22 --> 00:20:26 the passion part of the story of Jesus, because, you know, on one hand,
00:20:26 --> 00:20:31 it's like, you know, are we dwelling too much on the morbidity of the situation?
00:20:31 --> 00:20:35 But on the other hand, it really is just this story
00:20:35 --> 00:20:39 of like Jesus or God in the
00:20:39 --> 00:20:44 form of a human being allowing free will to carry out to such an extent that
00:20:44 --> 00:20:49 God's own people are literally killing God and torturing God in such a way that
00:20:49 --> 00:20:56 he's even allowing us to carry out that free will to the greatest extent.
00:20:57 --> 00:21:00 And it's like, wow. So it is kind of interesting.
00:21:00 --> 00:21:04 And I often kind of, I wrestle with that, you know, one of the things I want
00:21:04 --> 00:21:07 to ask you before, before we go, though, is one of the things I almost forgot
00:21:07 --> 00:21:10 about this too, is if you could speak to the,
00:21:10 --> 00:21:16 so the image on the shroud, one of the critiques that often it gets is the proportions
00:21:16 --> 00:21:22 of the features and the critics would say that the proportions are not in line
00:21:22 --> 00:21:25 with like the normal proportions of a human being.
00:21:25 --> 00:21:29 So I'm sure that much study has gone into, to that part of it.
00:21:29 --> 00:21:31 What would you say to that part?
00:21:31 --> 00:21:38 So that criticism usually comes to the images around the hands of the man of the shroud.
00:21:38 --> 00:21:41 And people say, oh, his fingers are way too long.
00:21:42 --> 00:21:46 That's not a normal length of fingers. And so there's some...
00:21:47 --> 00:21:54 Understanding that maybe what is being seen is actually the bones of the fingers of the man.
00:21:54 --> 00:21:59 So there's, and this is a great area where further study needs to be performed.
00:21:59 --> 00:22:06 Like, are we seeing some of the internal structures of his body in this image?
00:22:06 --> 00:22:09 Because this image formation, we don't know how it happened.
00:22:10 --> 00:22:17 We don't know what kind of radiation or what kind of light might have caused this image to be formed.
00:22:17 --> 00:22:23 So is it acting somewhat like an x-ray so that we can see internal structures?
00:22:23 --> 00:22:29 Some people feel like they can see the teeth of the man. Some people say they can see the backbone.
00:22:29 --> 00:22:37 And so is that distorting the image in a way that makes people think that it's not accurate?
00:22:38 --> 00:22:42 We haven't really talked much about the blood, but the blood is an area that
00:22:42 --> 00:22:46 has been studied extensively in the images.
00:22:46 --> 00:22:52 And so what has been discovered is that there's the bloodstains themselves,
00:22:52 --> 00:22:56 and then when the shroud was photographed under UV fluorescent lighting,
00:22:56 --> 00:23:02 there were halo serums that you could only see with that particular lighting.
00:23:02 --> 00:23:09 And what that shows is that the blood acted exactly like blood acts in life,
00:23:09 --> 00:23:18 that when blood is spilled, then as it starts to coagulate and form into a scab, it kind of retracts.
00:23:18 --> 00:23:26 And so it comes together and then it leaves a clear halo around the actual retracted blood.
00:23:26 --> 00:23:30 And so on the wounds, when they are photographed in UV fluorescent light,
00:23:31 --> 00:23:34 you can see these serum halos. You can't see them with the.
00:23:35 --> 00:23:40 But under that lighting, you can see it. And just kind of going back to your
00:23:40 --> 00:23:45 question about the faith, one of the most fascinating places where this is very
00:23:45 --> 00:23:47 clear is in the side wound.
00:23:47 --> 00:23:51 So the scriptures tell us that the Roman soldier came to Jesus.
00:23:51 --> 00:23:55 He did not break his legs because he was already dead, which is fulfillment
00:23:55 --> 00:24:00 of the Passover lamb, that he should be unblemished. None of his bones shall be broken.
00:24:01 --> 00:24:05 But then he pierced his side with this lancia.
00:24:06 --> 00:24:11 And again, it's the gospel writer, John. He's at the foot of the cross. He's an eyewitness.
00:24:11 --> 00:24:17 And he tells us three times, I saw this for myself. And I want you to know this
00:24:17 --> 00:24:23 is what I saw, that when the side of Jesus was pierced, blood and water flowed forth.
00:24:23 --> 00:24:27 And people have always said, well, how can that even be?
00:24:27 --> 00:24:32 Why would blood and water flow out? Well, we understand now a lot through study
00:24:32 --> 00:24:37 of the shroud that Jesus probably died from a dramatic heart incident and that
00:24:37 --> 00:24:39 because of all the torture he endured,
00:24:40 --> 00:24:44 there was probably a big buildup of fluid around his heart.
00:24:44 --> 00:24:49 And so when that pericardium was pierced, that fluid,
00:24:49 --> 00:24:54 that clear liquid serum flowed out and would have looked to John like water,
00:24:54 --> 00:24:59 and then followed by the heavy, dense red blood.
00:24:59 --> 00:25:06 And that was not visible until it was photographed in 1978 on the shroud under
00:25:06 --> 00:25:07 UV fluorescent lighting.
00:25:08 --> 00:25:12 And so I bring that up because we have it in the scriptures,
00:25:12 --> 00:25:16 and now we have it where we can see it on the shroud.
00:25:16 --> 00:25:22 And it's a way for us—we don't need to test the scriptures. We take the scriptures on faith.
00:25:22 --> 00:25:27 But it's a way for us to see the truth of what John was telling us,
00:25:27 --> 00:25:29 that blood and water flowed out.
00:25:30 --> 00:25:34 And Jesus—to me, this is so significant because Jesus kept saying,
00:25:34 --> 00:25:36 I will rebuild the temple.
00:25:36 --> 00:25:38 We'll destroy the temple, and I will rebuild it in three days.
00:25:39 --> 00:25:42 And you have to picture the temple that the people were thinking of,
00:25:42 --> 00:25:44 Herod's temple, the first century temple.
00:25:45 --> 00:25:48 And on the right side of that temple was a drain.
00:25:48 --> 00:25:53 And so all of those little lambs that were coming to be sacrificed,
00:25:53 --> 00:25:56 they would slit their throats and drain the blood out.
00:25:56 --> 00:26:01 All of that blood would be washed down the drain, and that blood and water would
00:26:01 --> 00:26:03 pour out the right side of the temple.
00:26:04 --> 00:26:09 And we see that exactly happening on the body of Jesus, His blood and water
00:26:09 --> 00:26:12 flowing out, and then we also see it on the shroud.
00:26:12 --> 00:26:17 So it's a way for us to explore our faith in a different way,
00:26:17 --> 00:26:26 in a way that is open to questioning and probing, and it's in no way in conflict with the Scriptures.
00:26:26 --> 00:26:32 Yeah and and not to mention you know the how many references to jesus as the lamb you know yes.
00:26:33 --> 00:26:37 So i know we're running short on time here but i i just want to give time to
00:26:37 --> 00:26:41 to make sure that is there anything else that we haven't covered that you think
00:26:41 --> 00:26:42 is important for listeners to know.
00:26:43 --> 00:26:47 Oh there's so many things about the shroud it's a it's been a lifelong topic
00:26:47 --> 00:26:52 of interest for me and it's the kind of thing where you can go in multiple directions
00:26:52 --> 00:26:56 so you can just pick a topic that is of interest to you.
00:26:56 --> 00:27:00 You have mentioned several times you like history. So you can explore history
00:27:00 --> 00:27:09 and your love of history will be enlivened by including the shroud in that study.
00:27:09 --> 00:27:12 Of course, there's all the science, but for me,
00:27:13 --> 00:27:19 I really like the connections to the scriptures because when you start listening
00:27:19 --> 00:27:24 for the shroud in the scriptures, you will start hearing it and seeing it in many,
00:27:24 --> 00:27:29 many places, and it will just kind of invigorate your study of the Scriptures.
00:27:29 --> 00:27:34 So I guess I invite people to explore the Shroud.
00:27:34 --> 00:27:41 It can stand up to all of your questions. It can stand up to probing, and we're invited in.
00:27:41 --> 00:27:48 We're invited in to ask those questions and to explore, But the Shroud is not
00:27:48 --> 00:27:51 an end in itself. It points us to Jesus.
00:27:51 --> 00:27:56 And the reason why I think the Shroud was left for us is so it's for this generation.
00:27:56 --> 00:28:01 It's for the skeptical generation that loves science and wants to have everything
00:28:01 --> 00:28:04 be explained neatly by science.
00:28:04 --> 00:28:08 And I believe that this has been left for us for now, for this time,
00:28:09 --> 00:28:16 for us to explore, use the shroud as a way to deepen our faith and to get to
00:28:16 --> 00:28:18 really know the person of Jesus.
00:28:18 --> 00:28:23 Not just to end with the study of this fabric, which is fascinating and I love
00:28:23 --> 00:28:30 it, but it's there to help us to become heirs of the kingdom with Jesus.
00:28:30 --> 00:28:32 That's what he left it for us for.
00:28:33 --> 00:28:38 Yeah, and as a complete aside, I'm just like, if this is real, then...
00:28:39 --> 00:28:42 Technically, we have Jesus' DNA. That's kind of neat.
00:28:44 --> 00:28:48 I think that's pretty cool. But yeah, it's one of the most fascinating sort
00:28:48 --> 00:28:50 of mysteries out there and artifacts.
00:28:51 --> 00:28:55 And again, when we're talking about history, it's one thing to talk about history.
00:28:55 --> 00:28:58 It's another thing to talk about ancient history, which this is,
00:28:58 --> 00:29:03 because the sort of the resources or the firsthand accounts that you have to work with are so few.
00:29:04 --> 00:29:08 But as you said, we've got the gospels, the gospel accounts that all sort of
00:29:08 --> 00:29:12 hit on these different points that we see within the Shroud.
00:29:12 --> 00:29:14 And it's just this fascinating thing.
00:29:15 --> 00:29:18 So where can people go to stay up on top of what you're up to,
00:29:19 --> 00:29:21 learn more about the Shroud? What are some resources for them?
00:29:22 --> 00:29:29 So I have a website. It's www.shroudeducator.com. And I try to keep it updated,
00:29:30 --> 00:29:32 but there are a lot of things going on in the Shroud world.
00:29:32 --> 00:29:38 So I do my best. The other place is I'm a part of an organization called Athonia,
00:29:39 --> 00:29:43 and that is spelled O-T-H-O-N-I-A.
00:29:43 --> 00:29:48 And Athonia is the Greek word that John uses in his gospel to describe the burial
00:29:48 --> 00:29:51 clause that are left behind in the tomb.
00:29:51 --> 00:29:57 And Athonia is based in Rome, and we are a part of the Regina Apostolorum,
00:29:57 --> 00:30:00 which is a pontifical university in Rome.
00:30:00 --> 00:30:06 And we're trying very hard to educate people about the Shroud and make sure
00:30:06 --> 00:30:09 that we use only the best information.
00:30:10 --> 00:30:15 So, you know, I tried to be very clear, like this is a theory or this hasn't
00:30:15 --> 00:30:19 been completely proven yet because we want to make sure that we're giving authoritative
00:30:19 --> 00:30:21 information that people can depend on,
00:30:22 --> 00:30:26 that this is good, up-to-date, clear, concise information.
00:30:26 --> 00:30:32 So, Athonia is a wonderful resource. We actually have launched an update to our website.
00:30:33 --> 00:30:37 So our current website is not up to date yet, but it will be in the future.
00:30:37 --> 00:30:43 And we aim to have really wonderful up-to-date resources available for people.
00:30:44 --> 00:30:45 That's fantastic. I will certainly
00:30:45 --> 00:30:48 put those in the show notes so people can go out and check it out.
00:30:49 --> 00:30:53 In addition, we'll have photographs on both the website and on social media.
00:30:54 --> 00:30:55 So Instagram and that type of thing.
00:30:56 --> 00:30:59 Nora, thank you so much. This is a fascinating conversation.
00:30:59 --> 00:31:02 I really appreciate your time today. So thank you for coming on.
00:31:02 --> 00:31:05 Well, thank you so much for having me and giving me the opportunity to talk
00:31:05 --> 00:31:06 about my favorite subject.
00:31:09 --> 00:31:15 Music.
00:31:14 --> 00:31:18 Thanks for listening to From the Void. If you enjoyed this episode or any of
00:31:18 --> 00:31:22 the previous episodes, please consider rating, reviewing, and subscribing so
00:31:22 --> 00:31:25 you don't miss a single new episode and sharing with a friend.
00:31:25 --> 00:31:29 We're an independent podcast and it helps us get noticed. this was
00:31:29 --> 00:31:33 the last episode of season six but we are already hard at work on season seven
00:31:33 --> 00:31:37 so you will not have to wait long so keep your eyes on social media and we'll
00:31:37 --> 00:31:41 have an update soon on when you can expect the new season thank you so much
00:31:41 --> 00:31:46 for listening i've been your host john williamson and you've been listening to from the void.
00:31:48 --> 00:33:00 Music.
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