Join us for the conclusion of an extraordinary interview with Warren Agius, where we delve into his fascinating new book, Close Encounters: Exploring the Mysteries of Alien Abductions. We examine compelling historical cases and unravel the stages of these mysterious encounters beyond just physical examinations to the spiritual and psychological exploration by extraterrestrial beings.
Dive deep into the infamous Travis Walton case, exploring both sides of the debate around whether it was a genuine alien abduction or a finely staged hoax. Additionally, the episode touches upon parallels with the Whitley Strieber case and the intriguing insights that have emerged over time from those experiences.
Concluding with a discussion of recent U.S. congressional UFO hearings, we explore the implications these hearings have had on public perception and what they mean for the future of UFO research. It's an episode packed with mystery, suspense, and an exploration of what lies beyond our world.
00:00:01 --> 00:00:07 From the darkest reaches of space to the deepest corners of your mind,
00:00:07 --> 00:00:11 welcome to From the Void.
00:00:16 --> 00:00:20 Welcome back to From the Void for the conclusion of my interview with author,
00:00:20 --> 00:00:24 researcher Warren Ajuice on his brand new book, Close Encounters,
00:00:24 --> 00:00:28 Exploring the Mysteries of Alien Abductions, where we dig into some of the most
00:00:28 --> 00:00:29 compelling cases in history.
00:00:29 --> 00:00:33 Welcome to this week's mystery, Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind,
00:00:33 --> 00:00:36 Alien Abductions, on From the Void.
00:00:36 --> 00:00:44 Music.
00:00:45 --> 00:00:48 Yeah, I think that's what's so intriguing about it, and in so many of these
00:00:48 --> 00:00:55 cases is the fact that the ones that happened decades ago, So often in these cases,
00:00:55 --> 00:01:01 the witnesses have stuck to the story that they've continued to tell decade over decade.
00:01:02 --> 00:01:06 Yeah, and I think if we were honest with ourselves, when we were kids,
00:01:06 --> 00:01:09 we all came up with imaginative stories.
00:01:10 --> 00:01:14 But at one point, someone does come out and say, listen, we made that up.
00:01:14 --> 00:01:21 No one continues the story for over 20 years. It just doesn't make sense. Yeah, exactly.
00:01:22 --> 00:01:28 So getting into the real meat of the book here, talking about alien abductions,
00:01:29 --> 00:01:33 talk about the stages of alien abductions before we get into any of the particular cases. Definitely.
00:01:35 --> 00:01:40 So the two cases we've discussed so far are close encounters of the third kind.
00:01:40 --> 00:01:45 And to remind the listeners there is that close encounters of the third kind
00:01:45 --> 00:01:51 is when the individual sees a UFO in close proximity, but they do not get abducted.
00:01:52 --> 00:01:56 Close encounters of the fourth kind is when the individual gets abducted,
00:01:56 --> 00:01:58 and it is what we will be talking about now.
00:01:59 --> 00:02:05 At the beginning of the second part of the book, which deals with alien abductions,
00:02:05 --> 00:02:10 I propose 10 stages of alien abductions.
00:02:10 --> 00:02:18 So what I did is that I analyzed all of the abductions and I sort of listed
00:02:18 --> 00:02:21 all the common denominators.
00:02:21 --> 00:02:25 And the first stage is UFO sighting.
00:02:27 --> 00:02:32 Every abduction starts with the individual seeing a bright light in the sky.
00:02:33 --> 00:02:38 And then that leads to the second stage, which is the immobilization stage.
00:02:39 --> 00:02:44 So what happens is that many abductees stated that they saw a UFO,
00:02:44 --> 00:02:48 and as the UFO got closer, they suddenly felt immobilized.
00:02:49 --> 00:02:55 And this immobilization is very similar to paralysis, where the individual feels
00:02:55 --> 00:03:00 completely paralyzed. They cannot shout, they cannot scream, they cannot run away.
00:03:01 --> 00:03:04 It's very similar to sleep paralysis.
00:03:04 --> 00:03:11 The third stage is the presence of extraterrestrials.
00:03:12 --> 00:03:17 And many times these alien beings are described as being humanoids.
00:03:17 --> 00:03:24 And humanoid beings are generally very short, and they have grotesque and bizarre
00:03:24 --> 00:03:30 features such as large almond-shaped eyes, translucent pale skin.
00:03:31 --> 00:03:34 There's a lack of ears and a lack of nose.
00:03:35 --> 00:03:41 And they look absolutely terrifying. And I say most commonly described because
00:03:41 --> 00:03:46 there's a case out there, which I include in the book, it's called the Pascagoula
00:03:46 --> 00:03:50 Encounter, where the alien does not resemble this description at all.
00:03:51 --> 00:03:56 But generally speaking, the appearance is consistent and it's very sinister.
00:03:57 --> 00:04:01 The fourth stage is when the individual gets captured.
00:04:01 --> 00:04:06 Apart from getting captured, they are also escorted onto the aircraft.
00:04:07 --> 00:04:15 What's also very common is on board the aircraft, the abductees are subjected to experiments.
00:04:15 --> 00:04:20 And obviously, there's physical experiments, but more importantly,
00:04:20 --> 00:04:24 there's also psychological and spiritual experiments.
00:04:24 --> 00:04:29 And I emphasize this a lot throughout the book, that alien abductions are not
00:04:29 --> 00:04:33 just about physical experiments, but they're also about an exploration of the
00:04:33 --> 00:04:36 human spirit and the human psyche.
00:04:37 --> 00:04:40 What I mean by this is that the experiments I'm referring to,
00:04:40 --> 00:04:44 the physiological experiments are about the human body.
00:04:44 --> 00:04:50 And generally speaking, these entities want to explore how the human body functions.
00:04:50 --> 00:04:55 For instance, in the Betty and Barney Hill encounter, samples are taken,
00:04:56 --> 00:05:00 skin samples, rectal samples, so on and so forth.
00:05:01 --> 00:05:06 Apart from that, there's also the emotional experimentation. and
00:05:06 --> 00:05:09 this is simply my theory that these beings
00:05:09 --> 00:05:16 are interested in how humans process emotions particularly fear and anxiety
00:05:16 --> 00:05:20 and the reason i came to this conclusion was that if you look at the majority
00:05:20 --> 00:05:28 of cases these beings elicit fear and anxiety through their experiments For instance,
00:05:28 --> 00:05:36 Whiteley's tree bear, they showed him telepathic images of the world burning, his child dying.
00:05:36 --> 00:05:41 The same with the Kentucky abductions where the women were subjected to such
00:05:41 --> 00:05:48 fear and such grueling experiments that they wanted to elicit these raw and intense emotions.
00:05:49 --> 00:05:51 They're clearly interested in how we process these emotions.
00:05:52 --> 00:05:57 The last experiment, which I also found very common, is the exploration of human
00:05:57 --> 00:05:59 consciousness, the human psyche.
00:06:00 --> 00:06:03 And what's also interesting is that following the reproduction,
00:06:04 --> 00:06:09 many abductees, they report experiencing a shift in their spirituality,
00:06:09 --> 00:06:11 in their consciousness.
00:06:11 --> 00:06:15 They become more intrigued in the cosmos.
00:06:16 --> 00:06:20 Then there is the sixth stage, which is the return.
00:06:20 --> 00:06:24 And here the individual is returned to the place where they had been abducted,
00:06:24 --> 00:06:30 more often than not, in the majority of times, in a state of amnesia,
00:06:30 --> 00:06:32 which is known as missing time period.
00:06:33 --> 00:06:37 And the missing time period is precisely that, a state of amnesia,
00:06:37 --> 00:06:40 where the individual cannot recall what took place.
00:06:40 --> 00:06:47 As a matter of fact, days go by, weeks go by, months go by, and the individual
00:06:47 --> 00:06:52 cannot recall what took place in the time frame where they had been abducted.
00:06:52 --> 00:06:57 This is followed by the eighth stage, which is the after effects.
00:06:57 --> 00:07:00 And here I list the immediate and intermediate after effects.
00:07:01 --> 00:07:06 Many times the abductees realized that something had happened because they started
00:07:06 --> 00:07:09 experiencing these ailments for no particular reason.
00:07:09 --> 00:07:15 And these include physical ailments such as headaches, nausea,
00:07:15 --> 00:07:17 nightmares, which is very common.
00:07:18 --> 00:07:23 Rectal pain in many cases, but also psychological after effects.
00:07:23 --> 00:07:28 Many people start reporting trauma responses, a higher level of anxiety,
00:07:29 --> 00:07:34 flashbacks of images which they cannot make sense of, symptoms of depression.
00:07:34 --> 00:07:41 And this is what more often than not leads them to seek the help of professionals.
00:07:42 --> 00:07:45 In the ninth stage, there is memory retrieval. And
00:07:45 --> 00:07:48 many times this happens through dreams and through
00:07:48 --> 00:07:51 a process known as hypnotic regression and what
00:07:51 --> 00:07:54 i find interesting is that both when someone is
00:07:54 --> 00:07:58 dreaming and when they're under a hypnotic trance their
00:07:58 --> 00:08:01 consciousness is a sort
00:08:01 --> 00:08:04 of manipulated and what i mean
00:08:04 --> 00:08:07 by that is that when you're dreaming you do not have control over
00:08:07 --> 00:08:10 what comes up you do not have control over what
00:08:10 --> 00:08:13 you're dreaming of and many times and the
00:08:13 --> 00:08:18 research shows that when you experience a trauma throughout the day the conscious
00:08:18 --> 00:08:23 mind represses the trauma so for instance if I experience a horrible car crash
00:08:23 --> 00:08:30 if I experience a horrible trauma my brain will automatically repress those
00:08:30 --> 00:08:32 memories simply so I can function,
00:08:33 --> 00:08:36 simply to protect me but when an individual is dreaming.
00:08:37 --> 00:08:41 Obviously that the conscious mind sort of relaxes and these images,
00:08:41 --> 00:08:46 they manifest their way from the subconscious to the conscious state,
00:08:46 --> 00:08:50 as well as when the individual is under a hypnotic trance.
00:08:50 --> 00:08:57 Hypnosis is used so that the individual can access repressed subconscious memories.
00:08:58 --> 00:09:03 The tenth and final stage is the state of awareness, when the individual becomes
00:09:03 --> 00:09:05 aware that they have been abducted.
00:09:05 --> 00:09:08 And many times this happens when,
00:09:09 --> 00:09:16 their hypnotic regression sessions. And it is at this point that they accept
00:09:16 --> 00:09:22 that they had been abducted without their consent by a non-human entity,
00:09:22 --> 00:09:27 and they also have been subjected to experiments.
00:09:28 --> 00:09:34 Yeah, so let's talk about one of the more peculiar cases, we'll say,
00:09:35 --> 00:09:38 one that I've been fascinated with since I was a kid and I saw the movie,
00:09:38 --> 00:09:42 which I found out later after doing some research was not entirely accurate,
00:09:42 --> 00:09:46 but one that is pretty confounding, the Travis Walton experience.
00:09:47 --> 00:09:50 Multiple witnesses in this case, some controversy, but,
00:09:51 --> 00:09:55 by and large, it seems that most of the guys on that crew, and I'll let you
00:09:55 --> 00:09:56 talk about filling the details,
00:09:56 --> 00:10:01 have been pretty adamant about this event actually taking place to the extent
00:10:01 --> 00:10:05 where I think I saw a documentary within the last couple of years where it still
00:10:05 --> 00:10:09 brings up some pretty visceral emotion amongst who are on that crew.
00:10:09 --> 00:10:11 So talk about that case a little. Definitely.
00:10:12 --> 00:10:16 And the Travis Walton case is a pillar in alien abductions.
00:10:16 --> 00:10:19 It certainly made waves.
00:10:20 --> 00:10:24 First of all, there was a blockbuster movie. There's been books written about it.
00:10:25 --> 00:10:29 It's a case that although it took place in 1975, we're still talking about it.
00:10:30 --> 00:10:32 Certainly I could not have written
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 a book about alien abductions without including Travis Walton's case.
00:10:36 --> 00:10:39 And there's also controversy about
00:10:39 --> 00:10:42 it, which, you know, you have to be objective and you have to address.
00:10:43 --> 00:10:47 But first of all, it's important that we look at the case.
00:10:48 --> 00:10:52 So as I stated, the case took place in 1975. It was November.
00:10:53 --> 00:10:59 And Travis Walton, and he worked for this forestry company owned by his friend.
00:11:00 --> 00:11:05 And there were multiple eyewitnesses. So his colleagues, there's Mike,
00:11:06 --> 00:11:09 there's Alan, there's John, and a number of other men.
00:11:10 --> 00:11:15 And they were working in this forest in Arizona. And the forest is Apache Side
00:11:15 --> 00:11:17 Greaves National Forest.
00:11:17 --> 00:11:23 And Travis's friend, Mike, who was the boss, basically his company was given
00:11:23 --> 00:11:26 this contract to tin out the trees out there.
00:11:26 --> 00:11:29 So they had this time frame to get the job done.
00:11:30 --> 00:11:34 And on this day in November, the men, they finish up with their job.
00:11:34 --> 00:11:38 They load their equipment on their truck and they start driving back to Snowflake,
00:11:39 --> 00:11:39 Arizona, where they lived.
00:11:41 --> 00:11:45 And on their drive back, they see this bright light in the sky.
00:11:46 --> 00:11:52 And at first they think it's a star or, you know, an airplane about to make a landing.
00:11:53 --> 00:11:57 You know, things that you assume when you see a bright light in the sky.
00:11:57 --> 00:12:01 But that is not the case at all because, according to them, the light starts
00:12:01 --> 00:12:04 moving erratically from side to side,
00:12:04 --> 00:12:10 which immediately rules out the possibility of the light being either a satellite
00:12:10 --> 00:12:16 or an aircraft or a meteorite, any of the rational explanations we can think of.
00:12:16 --> 00:12:22 What happens next is that this UFO, it gets closer in proximity and it also
00:12:22 --> 00:12:29 starts hovering above an area, above the trees.
00:12:30 --> 00:12:33 So the guy who was driving, he pulls
00:12:33 --> 00:12:40 over to the side and here they have a perfect visual of the aircraft.
00:12:40 --> 00:12:43 It was a disc-shaped aircraft with the dome structure on top.
00:12:43 --> 00:12:49 It had a flange around its center and it was around 20 feet wide and it was
00:12:49 --> 00:12:53 emitting this very warm yellow glow.
00:12:54 --> 00:13:01 So you had this group of men looking at this disc-shaped UFO And suddenly,
00:13:02 --> 00:13:08 Travis stated that he felt this compulsion to open the truck and starts running towards it.
00:13:09 --> 00:13:14 And that's what he does. He opens the truck door and he runs towards the UFO.
00:13:16 --> 00:13:23 Suddenly, he starts hearing this weird noise, this frequency coming from the
00:13:23 --> 00:13:26 UFO, and he starts feeling uneasy about it.
00:13:27 --> 00:13:31 So he hides behind this rock and he starts thinking to himself,
00:13:31 --> 00:13:33 I need to get back to my truck.
00:13:34 --> 00:13:37 So at one point he says, okay, I'm going to make a break for it.
00:13:37 --> 00:13:39 And he starts running back to his truck.
00:13:39 --> 00:13:48 But suddenly this energy, which they describe as similar to a lightning bolt,
00:13:48 --> 00:13:49 but it wasn't lightning at all.
00:13:49 --> 00:13:56 It was simply this energy. It hits Travis and it sends him flying several feet
00:13:56 --> 00:14:01 in the air. At this point, his colleagues are completely in shock to what happened.
00:14:02 --> 00:14:06 And they run back to their truck and they speed away, leaving Travis completely behind.
00:14:06 --> 00:14:11 And at that point, you know, later on in their interviews, they stated that
00:14:11 --> 00:14:15 their instinct kicked in and they wanted to protect themselves from this aircraft.
00:14:15 --> 00:14:18 So they simply ran away, leaving Travis behind.
00:14:19 --> 00:14:23 A few minutes pass and the guys start talking with each other.
00:14:23 --> 00:14:25 They start asking each other what they had seen.
00:14:26 --> 00:14:30 They come up with possible scenarios of what happened. and then it dawns on
00:14:30 --> 00:14:34 them that they had abandoned Travis and they had left him in the middle of the
00:14:34 --> 00:14:37 forest, injured and completely alone.
00:14:37 --> 00:14:44 At this point, they also see a bright light again in the sky hovering away into the distance.
00:14:44 --> 00:14:47 And they ask themselves, could this have been the UFO that we saw?
00:14:48 --> 00:14:53 So they drive back into the forest to search for Travis, but he's nowhere to be seen.
00:14:53 --> 00:14:58 There's no markings on the floor. There's no bear marks on the floor.
00:14:58 --> 00:15:04 There's nothing. So they turn on the lights on the truck.
00:15:05 --> 00:15:10 They use their flashlights. And they scan the area very quickly.
00:15:10 --> 00:15:11 But there's still no sign of Travis.
00:15:12 --> 00:15:16 So this leaves them in a dilemma of what to do.
00:15:16 --> 00:15:21 The only option left for them is they had to inform the authorities.
00:15:21 --> 00:15:23 That's the only thing that they could possibly do.
00:15:23 --> 00:15:30 So as they're driving back, they decide between them that they will not tell
00:15:30 --> 00:15:32 the police officers that they had seen a UFO.
00:15:33 --> 00:15:36 Because if they did, the police officers would simply not take them seriously.
00:15:38 --> 00:15:43 But that's not what happened. Obviously, it dawns on them, if they start concealing
00:15:43 --> 00:15:47 facts, it will make them, you know, it's illegal to do that.
00:15:47 --> 00:15:50 So they meet up with the sheriff and they tell him exactly what happened.
00:15:50 --> 00:15:57 And the first thing the sheriff does is that he goes into the forest and he
00:15:57 --> 00:16:02 brings out the search and rescue team, but they still cannot find Travis.
00:16:02 --> 00:16:05 So what they did, they informed his mother.
00:16:06 --> 00:16:14 And what is surprising is her response was that she stated that she was not...
00:16:14 --> 00:16:17 The officer who spoke with the mother, he stated that the mother did not seem
00:16:17 --> 00:16:19 shocked by what happened.
00:16:21 --> 00:16:25 So this is one of the factors which could possibly indicate that there is a
00:16:25 --> 00:16:27 hoax, but we'll get to that later.
00:16:28 --> 00:16:34 Back to the timeline of events, the men are increasingly worried because it's
00:16:34 --> 00:16:40 November in the middle of the forest and the chances of someone surviving without
00:16:40 --> 00:16:43 any support in the middle of the forest in winter,
00:16:43 --> 00:16:47 they decrease the longer, the more time passes by.
00:16:48 --> 00:16:53 So several days pass by and still no one has heard a word from Travis.
00:16:54 --> 00:16:59 The sheriff obviously does not believe that he had been harmed by UFO.
00:17:00 --> 00:17:02 He simply believes that there was foul play involved.
00:17:02 --> 00:17:07 So he makes the group of men undergo a polygraph test.
00:17:08 --> 00:17:12 Now, it's important to mention that although nowadays in 2024,
00:17:12 --> 00:17:17 we know that polygraph tests do not necessarily indicate whether someone is lying or not,
00:17:17 --> 00:17:23 but back then it was a reputable source to see whether someone is saying the truth or not.
00:17:24 --> 00:17:29 And the questions he asked the men was, the first one, did they cause harm to Travis?
00:17:29 --> 00:17:33 The second one, was Travis harmed by one of the crew members?
00:17:33 --> 00:17:38 The third one, was Travis buried in Turkey Springs, the forest site?
00:17:38 --> 00:17:45 And the fourth one, were they being truthful when they said that they had seen a flying disc?
00:17:45 --> 00:17:50 All the men, five of the men, passed the test. The other test was inconclusive.
00:17:51 --> 00:17:56 So at this point, the sheriff, although he does not fully believe the story.
00:17:57 --> 00:18:01 He... Well, it's important to know that although he does not believe them,
00:18:01 --> 00:18:04 he does become less hesitant of them.
00:18:04 --> 00:18:09 And this is an important part of the story because he starts taking their version
00:18:09 --> 00:18:11 of the truth more seriously.
00:18:13 --> 00:18:18 A few days pass by. It's the 10th of November, five days since Travis had disappeared.
00:18:18 --> 00:18:24 And in the middle of the night, his sister receives a phone call.
00:18:25 --> 00:18:30 And her husband, he answers the phone, and he hears this weak voice.
00:18:30 --> 00:18:38 And it was Travis. Travis had told that he had been returned and that he needed help.
00:18:38 --> 00:18:44 However, throughout the five days, the family members had been receiving multiple
00:18:44 --> 00:18:46 print calls from people claiming that they were Travis.
00:18:47 --> 00:18:49 So at first, he was not going to take him seriously.
00:18:50 --> 00:18:55 However, Travis told them the sentence, I have been brought back.
00:18:55 --> 00:19:00 And he tells them that he's in this phone booth in Arizona.
00:19:00 --> 00:19:05 So the husband, Grant, he picks up Duane, who is Travis's brother,
00:19:05 --> 00:19:11 and they pick up Travis. and they find him in one of three phone booths on the
00:19:11 --> 00:19:14 floor, weak, malnourished.
00:19:14 --> 00:19:19 And as they bring him in the truck, he starts repeating the sentence that they
00:19:19 --> 00:19:24 were awful and they also had massive bulgy eyes.
00:19:24 --> 00:19:28 They kept asking him who he was referring to, but he would not elaborate.
00:19:28 --> 00:19:29 He was in a state of shock.
00:19:30 --> 00:19:35 At this point, the sheriff's office, they receive an anonymous tip from someone
00:19:35 --> 00:19:37 telling them, listen, Travis has returned.
00:19:38 --> 00:19:42 However, Travis was still in shock, and Dwayne thought that if the sheriff was
00:19:42 --> 00:19:46 going to interrogate him, the current moment was not the time or place.
00:19:46 --> 00:19:52 So Dwayne tells the sheriff that their trip was incorrect, and Travis had not actually returned.
00:19:54 --> 00:19:59 Apart from that, Dwayne takes Travis out of the city to protect him from the press.
00:20:00 --> 00:20:09 As the time goes by, more of what happened starts coming out the sheriff is
00:20:09 --> 00:20:15 still chasing Duane but Duane is simply telling him that Travis has not returned yet and apart from that,
00:20:17 --> 00:20:23 Travis is slowly recuperating. Now, something I failed to mention was when Travis
00:20:23 --> 00:20:26 first disappeared, there was the search party.
00:20:27 --> 00:20:33 And in the search party, there were a few individuals who were interested in the UFO phenomenon.
00:20:33 --> 00:20:37 And they told Dwayne that when Travis returns, if he does return,
00:20:37 --> 00:20:39 they should take a urine sample.
00:20:40 --> 00:20:45 So the first urine, Dwayne took a sample of that.
00:20:47 --> 00:20:54 So at this point, multiple days pass by, and the sheriff finally does speak with Travis.
00:20:54 --> 00:21:01 And Travis tells him that, you know, what happened, and the sheriff sort of drops the case.
00:21:02 --> 00:21:06 But at this point, Travis still does not truly know.
00:21:06 --> 00:21:10 He is not completely aware of what took place five days ago.
00:21:11 --> 00:21:14 That is until he underwent hypnotic regression.
00:21:15 --> 00:21:21 Dr. Harder, who was in charge of this hypnotic regression, he guided Travis
00:21:21 --> 00:21:22 into this hypnotic trance.
00:21:23 --> 00:21:30 And Travis stated that when he opened his eyes, he was in this medical operating
00:21:30 --> 00:21:32 room. There were bright lights.
00:21:32 --> 00:21:37 Around him were these instruments, which he was not aware what they were used for.
00:21:38 --> 00:21:43 And there were also these grotesque beings looking down on him.
00:21:43 --> 00:21:48 After a few moments, Travis stated that he sat up and he pushed one of the beings away.
00:21:49 --> 00:21:54 And as he touched them, he felt that they were very soft and that their skin felt weird.
00:21:54 --> 00:21:59 At this point, the two beings looking down at him, they reach out their hand
00:21:59 --> 00:22:02 as though they're telling him, calm down.
00:22:02 --> 00:22:04 But he's obviously petrified.
00:22:05 --> 00:22:11 Apart from that, after a few seconds, the beings run away. and he does not know
00:22:11 --> 00:22:13 where he is nor does he know where the.
00:22:14 --> 00:22:18 Nor does he know where they went. So he looks around, and he tries to find an
00:22:18 --> 00:22:20 instrument to protect himself with.
00:22:20 --> 00:22:26 And he finds this cylinder, and he tries to smack it on the metallic surface,
00:22:26 --> 00:22:27 but it does not break at all.
00:22:28 --> 00:22:35 So then he gets up from the table he was laid on, and he goes in the opposite
00:22:35 --> 00:22:36 direction where the beings went.
00:22:37 --> 00:22:40 So if the beings went to the left, he runs to the right.
00:22:40 --> 00:22:45 And as he's running down this corridor he sees this room and as he enters it
00:22:45 --> 00:22:51 he sees this chair in the middle of it and the room was completely dark and
00:22:51 --> 00:22:54 all it had was this chair in the center,
00:22:54 --> 00:23:02 as he starts approaching the chair he sees that the walls they darken and apart
00:23:02 --> 00:23:05 from that he starts seeing white specks all over,
00:23:06 --> 00:23:09 the walls the chair apart
00:23:09 --> 00:23:12 from that had these multicolored buttons there
00:23:12 --> 00:23:15 were around 25 buttons they were in
00:23:15 --> 00:23:18 a row of five and they had these different colors and there
00:23:18 --> 00:23:21 were also there was also the sliver on
00:23:21 --> 00:23:26 it uh you know like the like a gear stick on a car so travis sits down on this
00:23:26 --> 00:23:33 chair and he starts pressing these buttons and as he presses these buttons there.
00:23:33 --> 00:23:36 Was also this green screen about these buttons and he could see that there were
00:23:36 --> 00:23:39 different lines intersecting one another,
00:23:40 --> 00:23:43 but he was not aware what this correlated to.
00:23:43 --> 00:23:48 At one point, he grabs the lever and he twists it.
00:23:48 --> 00:23:52 At that point, he sees that the white specks around him, they start turning.
00:23:53 --> 00:24:01 And at one point, he also sees these nebulous purple-pink clouds, just like a galaxy.
00:24:01 --> 00:24:07 And at that point it dawned on him that he possibly could be suspended in space.
00:24:09 --> 00:24:14 So at that point, he gets up from the chair, and he walks back to the entrance
00:24:14 --> 00:24:17 of the room, and these effects, they stop.
00:24:17 --> 00:24:22 And then he starts thinking back at the beings he saw, and their features,
00:24:22 --> 00:24:27 they are very similar to the typical alien being.
00:24:27 --> 00:24:32 They were very short. They had these large, large heads with almond-shaped dyes.
00:24:33 --> 00:24:37 But then, surprisingly, he sees another creature, and this creature looked nothing
00:24:37 --> 00:24:41 like these alien beings. This creature looked human.
00:24:41 --> 00:24:46 And what I mean by that is that he was of the same height as Travis,
00:24:46 --> 00:24:50 so around 5'11", 6' tall. He had long hair.
00:24:51 --> 00:24:56 The only odd thing about him was the uniform he was wearing because he had this
00:24:56 --> 00:25:00 sort of helmet on, similar to what astronauts wear.
00:25:00 --> 00:25:04 And Travis, assuming that he was a human being, He starts talking to him.
00:25:04 --> 00:25:08 He starts asking him questions, such as, where am I? What is happening?
00:25:08 --> 00:25:14 But this individual, he completely ignores Travis, and he simply grabs his hand
00:25:14 --> 00:25:17 and starts leading him down the corridor.
00:25:18 --> 00:25:20 Travis, he has no idea where he's
00:25:20 --> 00:25:25 going. He continues to ask the man questions, but he does not respond.
00:25:26 --> 00:25:31 At one point, the man leads him into a room, and he realizes that they must
00:25:31 --> 00:25:38 have exited the disc-shaped aircraft because they can see the outer curvature of it.
00:25:40 --> 00:25:46 And this individual, and when I say individual, I'm not saying that he was necessarily
00:25:46 --> 00:25:52 a human being, but he looked very similar to a male individual.
00:25:52 --> 00:25:58 So he leads him to this room, and inside this room, there are two more individuals, a male and a female.
00:25:59 --> 00:26:05 And what they did is that they start pushing Travis down on a table and Travis resists.
00:26:06 --> 00:26:15 But at one point, the female, she puts on this mask similar to the mask they use for anesthesia.
00:26:15 --> 00:26:17 And Travis loses consciousness.
00:26:17 --> 00:26:21 The next thing he knows when he wakes up, he's in the middle of the road.
00:26:22 --> 00:26:27 But he was not aware that five days had passed. From then, Travis,
00:26:27 --> 00:26:34 he sees, as he wakes up, he sees this bright orange glow shooting up in the sky and disappearing.
00:26:35 --> 00:26:40 And he starts walking, trying to find the phone booth. And that is when he made the phone call.
00:26:41 --> 00:26:46 Now, that is Travis's case. And there are a few things to discuss.
00:26:47 --> 00:26:52 First of all, was this a genuine close encounter of the fourth kind,
00:26:52 --> 00:26:57 or is it simply a hoax? In the book, I explore both of these hypotheses.
00:26:58 --> 00:27:03 And the reality is that there are convincing factors for both of them.
00:27:03 --> 00:27:09 So the first hypothesis is, could this be an elaborate hoax?
00:27:09 --> 00:27:11 And the reason people believe this is that.
00:27:12 --> 00:27:17 First of all, the one factor I found very interesting is that Mike,
00:27:17 --> 00:27:20 who owned this forestry company, he had this contract.
00:27:21 --> 00:27:27 And they were basically behind on the contract, which means that they were going to lose thousands.
00:27:27 --> 00:27:34 The only reason they could be forgiven and not lose thousands is if they had
00:27:34 --> 00:27:38 a valid reason, which had nothing to do with the weather.
00:27:38 --> 00:27:42 The reason being was that this was already taken into consideration.
00:27:42 --> 00:27:47 So they were behind on this schedule. They could not state that they could not
00:27:47 --> 00:27:48 work because of the rain.
00:27:49 --> 00:27:53 So they had to have this excuse.
00:27:53 --> 00:27:58 And interestingly enough, just a week before the sighting, there was this documentary
00:27:58 --> 00:27:59 on the Betty and Barney case.
00:28:00 --> 00:28:06 So could it be that Travis and his boss came up with this explanation?
00:28:06 --> 00:28:12 I don't know. It could be the case. What's also interesting is that back then,
00:28:12 --> 00:28:19 the National Enquirer, which was a newspaper, it ran this yearly contestant of the best UFO case.
00:28:20 --> 00:28:24 And interestingly enough, Travis and his friends applied for the competition,
00:28:24 --> 00:28:28 and they won a couple of thousand dollars.
00:28:29 --> 00:28:33 So that also could be a reason why they could come up with a hoax.
00:28:34 --> 00:28:38 But then there's also a number of factors which indicate that this could be
00:28:38 --> 00:28:42 a genuine abduction story.
00:28:42 --> 00:28:45 First of all, the fact that there are multiple eyewitnesses,
00:28:45 --> 00:28:48 and also the samples which were taken.
00:28:49 --> 00:28:54 So something which is not included in many books is the fact that in 2017,
00:28:55 --> 00:29:03 40 or so years after the encounter, samples were taken from the alleged abduction site.
00:29:04 --> 00:29:10 What's interesting is that there is a lot of changes in the samples.
00:29:11 --> 00:29:16 So in the controlled sample, which was taken from a site that is not the alien
00:29:16 --> 00:29:22 abduction site, the trees taken from there, they showed to have experienced unnatural growth.
00:29:23 --> 00:29:25 However, the samples taken from
00:29:25 --> 00:29:29 the alleged abduction site, they held off chemical structural changes.
00:29:30 --> 00:29:36 For instance, there were higher levels of iron with particulates.
00:29:36 --> 00:29:41 The soil had different chemical structures. And many people believe that this
00:29:41 --> 00:29:45 could be because of the aircraft's propulsion system.
00:29:46 --> 00:29:51 So with that being said, at the end of the chapter, I present all of the details.
00:29:51 --> 00:29:56 And to this day, I still get people with mixed opinions on the Travis Wharton case.
00:29:57 --> 00:30:00 You know, many people say that he was simply doing this to get money.
00:30:00 --> 00:30:06 Other people say this is actually one of the most compelling UFO cases out there.
00:30:06 --> 00:30:14 And this is the reason why I wanted to write the book as objective as I possibly could.
00:30:15 --> 00:30:18 You know, if I was leaning towards a certain bias,
00:30:19 --> 00:30:23 if I was, for instance, if I wanted to write the book with the preconceived
00:30:23 --> 00:30:28 idea that I wanted to prove that alien abductions are real, I would simply omit
00:30:28 --> 00:30:30 certain details which contradict that.
00:30:31 --> 00:30:36 But if you read the book, you can see that there's all the information there,
00:30:36 --> 00:30:44 and the information there does not necessarily lean towards the extraterrestrial hypothesis.
00:30:44 --> 00:30:49 As a matter of fact, I do not push any hypothesis over the other.
00:30:49 --> 00:30:55 I leave it completely up to the reader to come up with their own conclusion.
00:30:56 --> 00:31:01 Yeah, and it is interesting, though, to look at some of the details of the Walton
00:31:01 --> 00:31:05 case in comparison to one of the other cases you talk about in the book,
00:31:05 --> 00:31:06 the Whitley-Strieber case. Yeah.
00:31:06 --> 00:31:10 Another one that happened, that one was a little bit later on in the mid-80s,
00:31:10 --> 00:31:17 but both sort of recount being terrified of their abductor.
00:31:17 --> 00:31:21 And then at least Strieber in years later, in recent years has even said,
00:31:21 --> 00:31:24 hey, you know, like it may not have been a negative experience,
00:31:24 --> 00:31:30 but the fact that I was in, you know, unusual circumstances and these strange
00:31:30 --> 00:31:35 beings were around me, I was, of course, terrified, but they may not have had malevolent intent.
00:31:35 --> 00:31:39 So he's even sort of switched his position on it to some degree.
00:31:39 --> 00:31:43 But that's another one, obviously, that, you know, has some controversy surrounding it.
00:31:45 --> 00:31:49 And what's interesting, John, is that I interviewed Strieber for the book.
00:31:49 --> 00:31:53 And because it's such, like you said, it's such a controversial topic.
00:31:53 --> 00:31:56 It's such a controversial case, rather.
00:31:57 --> 00:32:01 So Whiteley Strieber, before anything else, he's a New York bestseller.
00:32:01 --> 00:32:05 He's a New York bestselling author. So before he wrote Communion,
00:32:05 --> 00:32:08 he wrote many successful books.
00:32:08 --> 00:32:11 And many people state that he came
00:32:11 --> 00:32:17 up with the story as a next plot for a bestseller but what I find fascinating
00:32:17 --> 00:32:23 is that after this encounter his approach changed and I asked him why do you
00:32:23 --> 00:32:27 think this case happened and I remember him telling me that this case has got
00:32:27 --> 00:32:30 to do more with spirituality rather than,
00:32:31 --> 00:32:36 these physical experiments that he was subjected to and he emphasized a lot
00:32:36 --> 00:32:40 that this phenomenon has got more to do with the spirit than it does the human body.
00:32:41 --> 00:32:44 Yeah, absolutely. So it is kind of interesting that, you know,
00:32:44 --> 00:32:49 given time to process their experiences that, you know, even their own perspectives
00:32:49 --> 00:32:50 have kind of changed over time.
00:32:51 --> 00:32:56 Yeah. And as you accurately stated, they were both subjected to such anxiety and such fear.
00:32:56 --> 00:33:02 But it's interesting to see, you know, Whitey Streber talk about it in such
00:33:02 --> 00:33:10 a spiritual way where he now does not think that this was a negative experience at all.
00:33:11 --> 00:33:15 Yeah, absolutely. I know we're running short on time, but I wanted to get your
00:33:15 --> 00:33:18 thoughts on the recent congressional hearings here in the US.
00:33:19 --> 00:33:26 And in terms of, do you think that this has had the desired effect or do you
00:33:26 --> 00:33:27 think there's more to come?
00:33:27 --> 00:33:31 What are your thoughts on, now that we're through our second one,
00:33:32 --> 00:33:37 per se? I think the fact that we're having a congressional hearing, that's already a win.
00:33:37 --> 00:33:41 I mean, if we look back 10 years ago, would this have happened?
00:33:41 --> 00:33:43 Would we have a congressional hearing?
00:33:44 --> 00:33:48 I highly doubt so. As a matter of fact, and then I ask, if we had a congressional
00:33:48 --> 00:33:51 hearing 10 years ago, would we have.
00:33:52 --> 00:33:56 Such reputable individuals testifying.
00:33:57 --> 00:34:02 I mean, we've had David Fravor, we've had Lou Elizondo, we've had David Grush,
00:34:02 --> 00:34:06 and these are all individuals who had such.
00:34:06 --> 00:34:13 First of all, such an important role in the military, but looking at Lou Elizondo
00:34:13 --> 00:34:18 and David Grush, they had a top-level clearance, which means that they're not
00:34:18 --> 00:34:21 ordinary individuals, let's say that.
00:34:21 --> 00:34:26 But then people have had mixed reactions, people who are expecting more.
00:34:26 --> 00:34:33 But as I've always said, you cannot expect disclosure to come from these congressional hearings.
00:34:33 --> 00:34:41 And the reason being is that you cannot have a nation running on uncertainty, fear, and anxiety.
00:34:41 --> 00:34:48 You cannot have that at all. So you cannot have politicians or congressmen coming out and saying,
00:34:48 --> 00:34:56 we are not alone and these UFOs have advanced technology and you certainly cannot
00:34:56 --> 00:35:02 expect these politicians and military personnel to come out and say we are in
00:35:02 --> 00:35:03 contact with these beings.
00:35:03 --> 00:35:08 Granted that that's what these whistleblowers are saying but I do think that
00:35:08 --> 00:35:14 there has been a positive outcome from it simply for the fact that we're talking
00:35:14 --> 00:35:17 about it at a Senate level And for me, that's a big win.
00:35:18 --> 00:35:23 And right now, the topic has much less stigma than it did a decade ago.
00:35:23 --> 00:35:28 Now we can have open discussions about the phenomenon and what it's all about.
00:35:29 --> 00:35:35 And the fact that we're having such high-level individuals with a top-level
00:35:35 --> 00:35:41 clearance coming out and saying, I was part of a crash retrieval, to me, that's a big win.
00:35:41 --> 00:35:48 And I can only expect for more details and for more information to come out.
00:35:48 --> 00:35:53 But, you know, I tell the listeners, you know, disclosure has already happened.
00:35:53 --> 00:35:54 We know that we're not alone.
00:35:55 --> 00:35:58 And you do not need politicians to validate these experiences.
00:35:59 --> 00:36:03 You know, these beings are here for their own purposes, not ours.
00:36:03 --> 00:36:10 And whether we validate it or not, it does not eradicate the fact that these
00:36:10 --> 00:36:14 encounters do take place and that we are not alone.
00:36:15 --> 00:36:20 Absolutely. Well put. And as usual, excellent job. The new book is terrific.
00:36:20 --> 00:36:24 It's laid out so clearly and great research as always. So folks,
00:36:24 --> 00:36:25 go ahead and get the new book.
00:36:26 --> 00:36:28 Absolutely. Yeah, folks, go ahead and get the new book, Close Encounters,
00:36:28 --> 00:36:30 Exploring the Mysteries of Alien Abductions.
00:36:31 --> 00:36:34 Warren, thank you as always. you have an open door to come on anytime you have
00:36:34 --> 00:36:37 something you want to say. So thank you so much for coming on again.
00:36:38 --> 00:38:22 Music.
00:38:22 --> 00:38:23 You.
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