(True Crime) William Van Huss ”The Mad Gassers”

[00:00:02] From the darkest reaches of space to the deepest corners of your mind. Welcome to From The Void.

[00:00:16] Welcome to From The Void. I'm your host, John Williamson, and today's mystery is quite an unusual one. Unusual because it covers two separate incidents a decade apart.

[00:00:25] In the first half, you'll hear my interview with author and researcher William Van Huss, who wrote the book on the 1933 Mad Gasser case.

[00:00:33] Then we'll cover the incident in 1944, and then we'll cover some possible theories, as neither of these cases was ever truly solved.

[00:00:41] So let's get to it. This week's mystery, William Van Huss and the case of the Mad Gassers, on From The Void.

[00:00:53] All right. Very excited to have my guest on with me today. William, thank you so much for spending some time with me this morning.

[00:00:59] Oh, well, thank you for having me.

[00:01:01] Absolutely. As we talked about before we started recording, you're one of the few folks who have written extensively on this particular topic, the topic of the Mad Gasser of Mattoon.

[00:01:11] It's kind of an unusual, lesser-known mystery out there. Tell people a little bit about yourself and how you got into this topic specifically.

[00:01:21] Well, for me, I guess ever since I was a kid, I was reading things on unsolved mysteries and all the stuff about UFOs and ghost ships and Jack the Ripper and just all sorts of things like that.

[00:01:39] So I think I was introduced to it at some point back then, where I read just a small, maybe a paragraph or so about it.

[00:01:50] And then over the years, every time I would see something, it would be just like a little blurb.

[00:01:57] And then it was after I wrote a book called Saucers Over Appalachia, and it was about the 1973 UFO wave and just how it presented itself in the area that I'm from in Appalachia.

[00:02:11] And after that, I was kind of thinking about what to write about next.

[00:02:16] And I guess there was a, you know, because UFO waves have an element of mass hysteria that usually goes along with it, I was thinking about mass hysteria.

[00:02:28] And then I thought, oh, you know, the mad gasser, because the mad gasser always gets put into the category of a mass hysteria event and really solely.

[00:02:39] But there's really a lot more to it than that.

[00:02:44] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:02:45] And it's interesting.

[00:02:47] I was researching another topic for another guest, and we'll talk about it a little bit later, about how I think there could be a possible connection.

[00:02:54] And I'd love to get your take on it.

[00:02:56] But before we get to that part, though, we got to set the stage for listeners.

[00:03:01] Talk about the time in which this takes place and the location.

[00:03:05] What was going on at this time, and where did this event occur?

[00:03:10] Well, first, this is the first mad gasser event.

[00:03:12] So you have the one that you hear about the most is Mattoon, Illinois.

[00:03:18] And that one happened in the 1940s.

[00:03:20] That was like in the middle of World War II.

[00:03:22] But the first event is the one that I read the book about, is Botetot County in Virginia.

[00:03:29] And it's the county outside of Roanoke, Virginia.

[00:03:34] And this was in 1933.

[00:03:36] So it was about 10 years before the one that gets all the attention from Mattoon.

[00:03:42] I believe that the reason that the Mattoon event gets all the attention, though, is because shortly after it happened,

[00:03:53] there were people from Chicago's town outside of Chicago.

[00:03:58] There were people from Chicago, from the university, that came there and interviewed people and studied it

[00:04:05] and wrote it up as a mass hysteria event.

[00:04:09] And then since that time, you know, in the 50s, 60s, even up until, you know, more recent times,

[00:04:16] it's been cited in psychological journals and stuff as an example of a mass hysteria event.

[00:04:24] So I think that's why that one gets all the attention.

[00:04:27] I mean, if you look it up, you'll find the Wikipedia will say Madgasser of Mattoon, you know.

[00:04:32] Although this one occurred before it and was actually occurred much longer than that one

[00:04:38] because the Mattoon event lasted about two weeks.

[00:04:41] And the Madgasser event in Botetot County was like, you know, about a month, a month and a half, something like that.

[00:04:51] But they both do share a lot of common elements.

[00:04:55] I think I might have gotten away from your question.

[00:04:57] No, that's great.

[00:04:58] Talk about, so, you know, before we get into sort of the common conditions.

[00:05:03] Oh, the time.

[00:05:03] Yeah.

[00:05:04] So you said the 30s, but who was the first victim or who was the first person who sort of identified this

[00:05:12] as a potential, you know, person who was out there, you know, potentially gassing other people?

[00:05:18] Well, it was, yeah, 1933.

[00:05:21] So, and this is in the county.

[00:05:23] You know, the county, it wasn't in, didn't start in the city of Roanoke.

[00:05:27] So you have to kind of consider the time and place.

[00:05:31] And, you know, we're still much, I know it's difficult.

[00:05:35] People say all the time, oh, this was before the Internet, you know, but it's difficult to, you know,

[00:05:40] this is not only before the Internet, this is before a lot of things.

[00:05:42] So at that time, you know, this is mostly rural farm, farming communities.

[00:05:51] And even a lot of people back then, even though telephones existed, they hadn't reached everywhere,

[00:05:56] you know, so there was a lot of, there was a very big lack of communication.

[00:06:01] So, you know, you got your news from the newspaper or you got it via word of mouth.

[00:06:09] And the first, the first people that were the victims, it was a man named Cal Huffman and his family.

[00:06:16] And they lived in a house that was outside of Fen Castle, which was the county seat in Bonneton County.

[00:06:26] Very historic town.

[00:06:27] It's where the Lewis and Clark expedition left from.

[00:06:31] But he, he was living in this house because he was working the farm and him and his family lived there.

[00:06:41] The house was owned, though, by another man.

[00:06:43] I think his name was, last name was Henderson.

[00:06:48] And he was the one who actually owned the property, but he didn't live too far away from that property.

[00:06:54] So people would, people would refer to it as his house, you know, even though he didn't live there, right?

[00:07:01] So, that night, it was, you know, this was one of these snowy, it was right before Christmas.

[00:07:09] And they, his, his wife started smelling some sort of gas coming into the house.

[00:07:15] And then he smelled it and then it went away and then it came back stronger a little bit later.

[00:07:20] It went away again.

[00:07:22] And then, um, he said, well, he sent, he sent his son to go, to go call the police.

[00:07:29] And to do that, he had to go to someone else's house.

[00:07:33] That was quite a distance away.

[00:07:35] And when did that, the police arrived.

[00:07:38] And of course they couldn't find anything, you know, because they already opened the windows.

[00:07:42] This was a common problem with the Mad Gasser events in both places.

[00:07:47] You know, the people have already opened the windows to try to air it out, you know, because

[00:07:51] your natural instinct or whatever, if it's, there's a gas choking you up, you want to get

[00:07:55] it out of there.

[00:07:56] So, there was nothing to find.

[00:07:59] And, uh, and the police left.

[00:08:02] After the police left, it came back again for a third time.

[00:08:05] And then at that point, it, um, his daughter was so affected by it that she, they called

[00:08:11] a doctor instead of the police this time.

[00:08:14] And the doctor came and his daughter was so affected by it.

[00:08:18] She passed out and the doctor had to give her, uh, um, CPR to bring her back.

[00:08:23] So that, that was the first event.

[00:08:28] And then, um, it kind of spread from there and, and all the early events were in the

[00:08:35] county until it finally spread to the city.

[00:08:39] Wow.

[00:08:40] So, so obviously the, you know, one, one isolated event, you know, you can kind of chalk it

[00:08:44] up to, Oh, maybe there's a gas leak or something of that, of that nature.

[00:08:48] But, but once it starts to spread, talk about, you know, the, maybe the second victim and ultimately

[00:08:54] do the, what does law enforcement think at this point?

[00:08:56] Do we have someone on the loose who's, who's intentionally doing this to people or are they

[00:09:01] still sort of skeptical at this point?

[00:09:03] Um, well, at first I think they, um, you know, they considered it a one-off type of thing.

[00:09:10] Sorry, I'm moving around a little bit.

[00:09:12] Um, but then, uh, it continued to happen.

[00:09:19] And once it continued to happen, um, they would bring along a doctor.

[00:09:24] There was a specific doctor.

[00:09:26] His name was Breckenridge, I believe the, actually the, the, the policeman who, who was at almost

[00:09:32] every, uh, every time that was called, his last name was Lemon.

[00:09:37] And, um, he, uh, he would, he, he would bring the doctor along with him.

[00:09:43] So they were trying to find any sort of evidence of, um, like what this gas might be, um, what

[00:09:52] was happening, you know, it's cause it didn't get reported for a few days until after it

[00:09:57] happened, but you had the next event happen before it was even reported, you know?

[00:10:01] So, um, and the early ones were, um, I found this out later because there, there are hints

[00:10:11] of it, you know, that you can, you know, because like I was just telling you about the first

[00:10:15] one that the guy who owned the farm, you know, he lived down the road, but he wasn't the

[00:10:18] guy who was living in the house who everybody, you know, somebody may have thought he owned

[00:10:24] it.

[00:10:25] But I found out later because I did a talk on that, on it when the book first came out,

[00:10:30] I did a talk in Bonneton County at, at the library.

[00:10:34] And, um, I met some people who were relatives of the families that it happened to.

[00:10:40] And, uh, they told me about like that these early, that the early victims were all people

[00:10:48] who are very prominent citizens, you know?

[00:10:50] So, um, one of them was a magistrate, uh, that happened a little bit later.

[00:10:54] There was a, there's an area called Carvin's Cove that now it's a lake, um, that got flooded

[00:11:03] not long after this whole thing happened, really.

[00:11:06] The order was already in to, to flood this place and to like this little community.

[00:11:10] It was, the days are numbered, um, when it was happening, but there were a couple of,

[00:11:16] uh, attacks in Carvin's Cove community.

[00:11:19] And, um, uh, one of those was on a magistrate, you know?

[00:11:23] So these were all kind of prominent.

[00:11:24] The earlier ones were kind of prominent citizens, you know?

[00:11:27] So it's, it, you know, it could have been the case that this was someone, and I don't

[00:11:31] know if this is what the police were thinking at the time because they don't really give

[00:11:34] any, um, hint of that in their, uh, reports.

[00:11:39] But, um, it could have been the case that this was somebody who had a, uh, grudge against

[00:11:43] prominent citizens.

[00:11:48] Now, during this time, obviously, as there are an increasing amount, number of victims,

[00:11:53] uh, who, who are involved or at least reporting, um, these events, uh, does anyone catch, like,

[00:12:00] what kind of evidence, if any, is found?

[00:12:01] You mentioned the first victim, there wasn't really any evidence, uh, so to speak, but in

[00:12:06] later incidents, you know, did they find any kind of footprints or, or, or did anyone cite

[00:12:11] anyone unusual who was in the area?

[00:12:14] Yeah, there are several that, um, where there was evidence, um, when we're still, when we're

[00:12:21] still in the county with it, um, there was evidence of like, there was a people, there

[00:12:26] was a few people that said they saw somebody running away.

[00:12:30] You know, uh, there was a man who said he saw someone, a man running to get into a car

[00:12:35] that was like, the car was sitting on the side of the road running and this guy ran to

[00:12:39] get into this car.

[00:12:41] Um, a little bit later on, uh, around the car, time that the Carvin's Cove incident happened,

[00:12:48] which is, you know, I was, I had a big fascination with Jack the Ripper and it's kind of, it makes

[00:12:54] me think of that for some reason, that was the one time when Jack the Ripper, um, killed

[00:12:59] two victims in one night, you know, and this is kind of like that, what happened, um, there

[00:13:05] were like multiple events in one night and it happened in this Carvin's Cove area.

[00:13:10] And at that point, the police were so, the police were so ready that they, they blocked all

[00:13:15] the roads and stuff off.

[00:13:17] Um, but they never, cause there was very, there was only a couple of ways in and out

[00:13:21] of there.

[00:13:21] So they blocked them off, but they still didn't catch the person.

[00:13:24] But at that point, somebody, they went back to one of the houses and they found a crank

[00:13:30] like for, you know, the old, uh, automobiles used to start with a crank and someone had,

[00:13:37] um, reported and this crank belonged to an Overland, which was a brand of automobile in

[00:13:44] the early 1900s.

[00:13:45] It had already been, I think they had quit making them, um, in the twenties.

[00:13:50] So it was, so it would have been like a few years old, you know, the car.

[00:13:54] Um, there was also a part, a time when somebody saw a woman or they found a woman's footprints.

[00:14:01] Uh, and there was a time when they found, um, where it appeared at one person's house

[00:14:07] that the person had been, whoever did it, cause it was snow all over the place.

[00:14:12] The snow was all tamped down and there was sort of an area where they had been waiting

[00:14:16] on the people to like get home or something.

[00:14:19] Uh, there were other incidents where they found evidence, but they, but this is a little bit

[00:14:24] later, um, that were, that were like hoaxes.

[00:14:29] You know, these are things that I think what happened was, um, once it, once it became

[00:14:35] a big story and, um, you know, there, there was some overlap.

[00:14:40] There was like, I think that what happened was originally there was, there was a real, there

[00:14:46] was a person doing this going around to terrorize people as a terrorist attack really.

[00:14:51] And then there were people as often is the case with just about everything.

[00:14:56] There were copycats who were doing it like as, uh, um, you know, to just sort of get onto

[00:15:03] the, like there was one, there was a woman, um, who they, somebody threw something through

[00:15:09] her window and it was like a bottle of insecticide that like spilled out all in her house, you

[00:15:15] know, it was real smelly or whatever, but it was like, you know, obviously that was just

[00:15:18] a hoax.

[00:15:19] And then there was someone, there was another one where people, somebody put a bunch of

[00:15:22] brush up to somebody's door and set it on fire.

[00:15:26] You know, there was, and there was, uh, ones where people were, people started getting

[00:15:31] suspicious of everybody.

[00:15:32] So then there was like, there was several incidents where there would, where there would be people

[00:15:37] see a group of young boys, you know, before there was some sort of, you know, like teenagers

[00:15:41] before there was some sort of, uh, um, kind of a hoax, uh, perpetrated on them or, um,

[00:15:48] um, but yeah, it, it, as it kind of spread, I think it went through phases, which, you

[00:15:55] know, oftentimes this happens really with, uh, mass hysteria events and where there's an

[00:16:00] original event, there's an original thing, then there are the hoaxes.

[00:16:04] And then there is a mass, the mass hysteria actually ensues after that because there's

[00:16:08] so many.

[00:16:11] Yeah.

[00:16:11] That, that was kind of the impression when researching, uh, the incident in, in Illinois

[00:16:15] that, that sort of felt like the case where, uh, you know, you've got, you know, examples

[00:16:21] where people saw, you know, potential, uh, suspects and, and there was actual evidence

[00:16:26] left behind physical evidence.

[00:16:28] Uh, but then after a while, you know, the police aren't necessarily, um, you know, gathering any

[00:16:34] suspects.

[00:16:34] And so, you know, it's sort of the, the paranoia and fear sort of spreads throughout the community.

[00:16:39] And then you start to have people, uh, you know, as, as was the case there who are, you

[00:16:44] know, they're just getting inundated with, uh, reports of, you know, people being gassed

[00:16:49] when, you know, it wasn't the case, you know, it just, everyone assumes that's what's

[00:16:53] happening.

[00:16:54] Yeah.

[00:16:54] I think by the time it reached the city of Roanoke, um, most of those were either mass

[00:17:00] hysteria or they were somehow hoaxes.

[00:17:03] Like there was one where somebody had like, you know, clearly had like taken rags and like

[00:17:09] stuffed them under somebody's door, you know, and the rags had were soaked in some kind of

[00:17:14] chemical or whatever, but that's not the kind of thing that would like, uh, fill a whole

[00:17:19] house and, you know, knock someone unconscious, you know, that's the kind of thing that would

[00:17:23] be just enough to scare somebody who was, uh, who was primed to be scared in the first

[00:17:28] place.

[00:17:29] Yeah.

[00:17:30] Yeah.

[00:17:30] And you mentioned the, the earlier victims, at least there was a thread that kind of

[00:17:35] connected them all together in the respect that they were all like, you know,

[00:17:39] upper class, uh, folks did the, the, the law enforcement, the police ever have any kind

[00:17:45] of suspects in mind or did they ever arrest anyone or at least question anyone that they

[00:17:50] thought might be the culprit?

[00:17:52] Yeah.

[00:17:53] Um, actually they questioned, um, one person who was, they, um, there was one car that,

[00:18:01] that had been seen.

[00:18:03] It was driving with no headlights on and whoever had, had seen it at the time.

[00:18:08] They, it was in, you know, in the County on the country roads with no headlights.

[00:18:12] But so whoever saw that, um, were able to get their license plate.

[00:18:18] So they gave it to the police and the police found that person and questioned them, but

[00:18:22] that, that they released them and they didn't say why they didn't say they didn't

[00:18:26] ever, they never gave the person's name.

[00:18:28] And, you know, when I tried to find out more about that, I was told that the records

[00:18:34] from that time and the police records from that time were no longer existed, you know?

[00:18:39] So unfortunately we'll probably never know who that person was or if they were the real

[00:18:44] mad gasser, you know?

[00:18:46] Yeah.

[00:18:47] Yeah.

[00:18:48] Um, one of the interesting things I wanted to get your perspective on is, um, and I mentioned

[00:18:52] this at the, at the top of the interview is, you know, there, there, there are, um,

[00:18:57] um, situations that, you know, actually happened and we, and we've seen as, uh, more records

[00:19:03] have been released or, um, uh, you know, from specifically like, you know, old CIA operations

[00:19:09] and stuff like that.

[00:19:10] There's a really interesting book, uh, that I just read, um, about an individual named

[00:19:14] Sidney Gottlieb, who was the head of our, um, yeah, it's a, yeah, you're familiar.

[00:19:20] Um, interesting guy.

[00:19:22] Yeah.

[00:19:22] So, uh, but we know that the government, uh, specifically, you know, during world war

[00:19:27] one, we're using various gases and we're interested in sort of biological weapons and we're testing

[00:19:33] these things throughout world war two.

[00:19:35] And then after world war two, and there's, you know, memos, you know, from the CIA, um,

[00:19:40] that, that outline these things.

[00:19:42] And there are examples of where, you know, they tested, you know, uh, different chemicals

[00:19:48] and aerosol form on unwitting, you know, citizens.

[00:19:51] Uh, there's an example out, um, on the West coast, I believe it was in San Francisco where

[00:19:55] it was, you know, allegedly a harmless bacteria that they spread, but it actually ended up killing

[00:20:01] somebody, um, who had just gone through some sort of surgery.

[00:20:04] So like we know for a fact that our government and many governments have tested out various

[00:20:10] agents.

[00:20:10] So, uh, I wonder what your take is on, you know, maybe, uh, the, the incidents in the

[00:20:15] thirties and then, you know, even the incidents that, that were recorded, you know, in Illinois

[00:20:20] in the forties, um, the potential that perhaps this was somebody who was testing potential,

[00:20:28] you know, military grade gases.

[00:20:31] Yeah.

[00:20:31] Um, yeah.

[00:20:33] Uh, well, I think the two times, you know, are, uh, even though they're only 10 years apart,

[00:20:40] they're a little bit different because, you know, world war one was where, you know, chemical,

[00:20:46] you know, gases were first used and, you know, weaponized.

[00:20:50] And, um, and the gas that was most common in, uh, world war one was chlorine gas or phosgene

[00:20:56] gas would be, you know, but, um, uh, and, and the time in, in Illinois, you know, we're,

[00:21:03] we're in the middle of a war.

[00:21:04] So the paranoia was really high and, um, and it was well known that gases could be used

[00:21:12] and stuff like that.

[00:21:13] But in the first, in the first incident in the, you know, at least the evidence of what

[00:21:20] gas it was, you know, there, there are several different reports and possibilities.

[00:21:27] Now, chlorine gas was mentioned, uh, by one of the doctors that he thought it smelled like

[00:21:33] chlorine gas.

[00:21:35] Um, chlorine gas, uh, someone with any, just a little rudimentary knowledge of the

[00:21:43] chemistry could come up with some chlorine gas, you know, because bleach was already around,

[00:21:49] you know.

[00:21:50] Um, there were other gases, uh, that were suggested that, um, there was one called, they called

[00:21:59] it chicken gas, but it was, what it is, is, uh, it's this carbon dioxide and you back in

[00:22:08] the day, and, um, maybe they'd still do it.

[00:22:09] Um, they would, like at slaughterhouses, they would take carbon dioxide gas and fill the chicken,

[00:22:16] uh, coops with it and put the chickens to sleep before they, uh, slaughtered them.

[00:22:22] You know, it was a little bit more humane, I guess, to do.

[00:22:25] And, um, so they thought that maybe it was that, which would make sense in a, such a rural

[00:22:30] setting that maybe somebody who was thinking that, you know, somebody who wasn't wrapped

[00:22:34] too tight that thought that, well, I'm going to put all these people, you know, you'd have

[00:22:38] to know their motivations, I guess, a little bit, you know, because, you know, where are

[00:22:42] they thinking?

[00:22:42] I'm going to put all these people to sleep and then I'm going to do something, you know.

[00:22:46] Um, and then it just didn't work, you know.

[00:22:49] And then there's also, um, you know, there were several gases.

[00:22:54] Formaldehyde was smelled at one time.

[00:22:56] Um, but that doesn't mean that, um, necessarily that they're different, you know, that, that,

[00:23:05] that, that everybody's mistaken about what they're smelling or that, um, you know, that

[00:23:10] there's no evidence.

[00:23:10] It could mean that whoever was perpetrating it was trying out different things, you know,

[00:23:16] or modifying it as they went along because they were trying to get a certain result that they

[00:23:21] weren't getting, you know.

[00:23:22] Um, as far as the government, you know, or any sort of government involvement or having

[00:23:28] to do with the, either of these episodes, I don't know.

[00:23:32] Um, you know, I wouldn't put anything past them if knowing what I know about, you know,

[00:23:39] things like MK ultra or operation North woods or, you know, all these other million other

[00:23:44] different things that they've done in the past, I wouldn't put anything, uh, past them, but

[00:23:49] I would expect it to probably be a little bit more, um, uh, I don't know, maybe a little

[00:23:55] bit more widespread.

[00:23:57] Um, or, or I would expect worse results maybe like that, that more of that people died, you

[00:24:05] know, cause nobody really died.

[00:24:07] You know, there were people that were, um, you know, there was one gas that they thought

[00:24:12] that could have been used.

[00:24:13] I can't remember which one it was, but it was because they had a, there was a fabric.

[00:24:18] I know that was formaldehyde.

[00:24:19] There was a fabric, um, uh, textile mill there and they used formaldehyde in the making of

[00:24:25] the fabrics.

[00:24:26] So somebody who worked there could have gotten that, you know?

[00:24:30] So whoever was doing it, um, I would, I think that probably it's a good possibility that

[00:24:39] they were, um, they were modifying and, and trying to get to some sort of, uh, result that

[00:24:46] they never really got to maybe.

[00:24:50] Yeah.

[00:24:50] Talk, talk a little bit about, um, you mentioned that there are some links between the two incidents.

[00:24:55] Um, what were those links?

[00:24:57] And then ultimately, um, do you think the two were connected at all or were these two completely

[00:25:01] separate isolated events?

[00:25:04] Well, it's hard to say.

[00:25:05] I don't know if, I mean, the, the links between them would just be the circumstantial evidence

[00:25:11] of that.

[00:25:12] They, that they both like had very similar, um, you know, they presented themselves very

[00:25:16] similarly.

[00:25:17] Um, you know, it's entirely possible that somebody could have done this in Botetourt County,

[00:25:24] moved to Illinois and then did it again 10 years later, you know, try to do it again.

[00:25:31] Um, who knows?

[00:25:33] Um, but it's also possible that somebody could have this maybe, you know, could have, um,

[00:25:40] the seed could have been planted in their mind because they read about the Botetourt County

[00:25:44] incident.

[00:25:45] And I'd, I'd read people before in who had written about, you know, small things about

[00:25:52] the Botetourt County episode.

[00:25:54] And, and they had said that like, well, there's no way that anybody could have known because

[00:25:58] it wasn't reported out of the area.

[00:25:59] But there are a couple of different articles that were picked up, uh, by the AP and were

[00:26:04] circulated.

[00:26:05] I don't know if they were circulated in the newspapers in Illinois, but they were picked

[00:26:09] up by the AP.

[00:26:10] So that's wide circulation.

[00:26:12] So it's entirely possible that somebody could have read that, you know, and then sort of

[00:26:16] bookmarked it in their mind.

[00:26:18] And then whenever they came to say, you know, to, to try to do their, um, little terrorist

[00:26:24] acts or whatever they, they were, they've thought about this.

[00:26:26] And of course it was, it would have been much more easy to think about something like

[00:26:31] that in, um, you know, in the time of World War II, as opposed to 1933, which it was a

[00:26:37] very novel thing.

[00:26:39] And 1933 had never been done before, you know?

[00:26:42] And as a matter of fact, since then, it's been, you know, there've been instances since

[00:26:49] then.

[00:26:49] Um, most recently, there was one probably like six years ago or so in Ohio where somebody

[00:26:57] used a, um, and this is like six, seven years ago or something.

[00:27:02] Somebody used a drone to like fly up to people in front of their face and spray gas on it.

[00:27:10] It just spray some kind of gas out of it.

[00:27:12] And I remember reading about that one.

[00:27:13] Somebody sent it to me and, uh, or reading about that one.

[00:27:16] And I tried, I wanted to follow up.

[00:27:18] There was never any follow up on it, like of them doing it more than once.

[00:27:22] But, um, but it makes sense because, you know, now they use drones for, um, to spray crops,

[00:27:29] you know?

[00:27:30] So it makes sense that like, it seemed the, the mad gassers seem to have been like as

[00:27:36] many crimes are, um, they, they couldn't have existed without the technology of the time.

[00:27:42] And so people are always on top of what the new thing is in order to perpetuate some crime,

[00:27:47] you know?

[00:27:48] And they're, and they're always on top of what, um, you know, the, the law enforcement

[00:27:54] is after them.

[00:27:55] They know what the law enforcement is looking for, you know?

[00:27:57] So they can, you know, curb that.

[00:27:59] So, you know, at the one, on one hand you could say, oh, well, nowadays in, in the sort

[00:28:05] of surveillance state that we live in, you know, with cameras everywhere, um, everything's

[00:28:10] being recorded all the time.

[00:28:12] Then, you know, if someone could never do that, they can never perpetuate that type of

[00:28:16] crime now, but you know, criminals are criminals and they'll, they, they know what to expect,

[00:28:21] you know?

[00:28:22] Just like with Jack the Ripper, like they implemented, uh, fingerprinting, like it was like right

[00:28:30] after the last murder.

[00:28:33] So, you know, had they implemented it before, there might've been a small window where he

[00:28:37] didn't know, you know, and they could have gotten him on fingerprints, you know, if he

[00:28:41] had a record, but had he known that the fingerprinting existed, he would have like taken measures against

[00:28:48] that, you know?

[00:28:50] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:51] You know, it just, it's constant evolution and, um, it's just interesting to see, you know,

[00:28:55] modern technology, you know, they're using a different delivery system essentially.

[00:29:00] And you're going to take some of the risk out of it because then the human being isn't

[00:29:03] present at the scene of the crime and, you know, they're, they could be potentially miles

[00:29:07] away.

[00:29:07] So that's, that's interesting.

[00:29:08] Yeah.

[00:29:09] I live in Ohio by the way.

[00:29:10] Oh yeah.

[00:29:10] Okay.

[00:29:11] Well, watch out.

[00:29:12] Yeah.

[00:29:14] I'm going to be keeping one eye over my shoulder at all times now.

[00:29:17] So there was also the recent, you know, the thing when in Israel, you know, with the

[00:29:21] Israel, uh, Mossad or whoever that was, like, uh, blew up all those people's pagers, you

[00:29:26] know?

[00:29:27] Yeah.

[00:29:28] Like that, that's just another example of like, you're using a technology to do something

[00:29:32] that, you know, you could not have ever done before.

[00:29:35] Yeah.

[00:29:36] It's, it's, it's remarkable that, you know, even, even back in those days to think about,

[00:29:40] you know, an explosive device that's that small, you know, that, that you could, you

[00:29:45] could, uh, put inside of a pager is, is just crazy to think about, but yeah.

[00:29:50] Yeah.

[00:29:50] So, so tell people real quick, um, where can they go to get a copy of the book if they

[00:29:54] want to read more on this topic?

[00:29:56] Um, well it's available on Amazon and, um, also from our Etsy shop that we have for our

[00:30:02] companies called mystic novelty that we do.

[00:30:05] Um, we make all kinds of different things.

[00:30:07] So I sell it on there and then you can also get it from Amazon.

[00:30:11] Perfect.

[00:30:12] Well, we'll, we'll have all the links in the show notes.

[00:30:14] Um, just want to say again, thank you so much for coming on and talking a little bit

[00:30:17] about this, um, very unusual mystery that I think, uh, not many people know about, but

[00:30:22] once you kind of read into it, you're like, this is one of the weirder unsolved mysteries

[00:30:26] of all time, maybe.

[00:30:28] Yeah.

[00:30:29] Well, thank you for having me.

[00:30:29] It's a very, um, you know, it's one of those mysterious, uh, um, true crime things

[00:30:36] that's just never been solved and possibly never will be solved, but you know, we can always

[00:30:39] learn something about it, particularly about, um, mass hysteria and the nature of, of crimes

[00:30:45] like this.

[00:30:47] Absolutely.

[00:30:47] Well, thanks again for coming on folks.

[00:30:49] Go grab a copy of the book.

[00:30:50] Uh, as I said, links will be in the show notes, uh, go buy a copy and, uh, learn more about

[00:30:55] it.

[00:32:04] So let's talk about some potential theories and explanations.

[00:32:07] The big one that was used to kind of blanket over both situations, the one in 33 and the one

[00:32:13] in 44 was mass hysteria specific to the incident in Illinois.

[00:32:18] And specific to the incident in Illinois, Mattoon police chief C.E.

[00:32:22] Cole basically eventually attributed the entire event to mass hysteria.

[00:32:26] He suggested that shifting winds from a local war plant caused the odors.

[00:32:30] The main implicated plant called Atlas Imperial denied responsibility.

[00:32:35] They cited recent safety certifications and the fact that it was very improbable that their

[00:32:40] chemicals could have potentially caused such effects.

[00:32:43] You know, as they said, factory workers surely would have experienced the physical effects

[00:32:47] first before the winds would have theoretically carried the chemical fumes into town.

[00:32:52] So if that doesn't seem probable, then what is the other most prevalent theory?

[00:32:57] The other most prevalent theory is that the truth falls somewhere in the middle, meaning

[00:33:01] that the initial attacks were legitimate and then followed by mass panic.

[00:33:05] But the cause for these initial attacks has never been known for certain, which brings

[00:33:10] me to my third theory, one that I have not yet heard and one that's going to sound like a

[00:33:14] government conspiracy theory, but I'm asking you to hang on and bear with me.

[00:33:18] So what if one, if not both of the Mad Gaster incidents were products of our own government's

[00:33:24] research on chemical weapons?

[00:33:26] I know, I know it sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory, but hang with me here for a second.

[00:33:30] First, let's talk about our government's relationship to chemical weapons and chemical warfare.

[00:33:35] So early turn of the century, we have World War I, and we know that in World War I, that

[00:33:40] was largely the introduction of chemical weapons and chemical warfare.

[00:33:45] And we know that our government, much like governments around the world, were very interested

[00:33:49] in studying the various chemicals and chemical weapons to ensure that they weren't falling

[00:33:54] behind their enemies and also trying to find ways to protect themselves against their enemies.

[00:33:58] As such, we know that the United States Congress made the Chemical Warfare Service, or CWS, a

[00:34:05] permanent part of the Army back in 1920 with duties to continue, quote, the investigation,

[00:34:11] development, manufacture, or procurement and supply of all smoke and incendiary materials,

[00:34:16] all toxic gases, and all gas defense appliances.

[00:34:19] We also know that between 1930 and 1941, the CWS focused its efforts on refining its production

[00:34:27] of chemical warfare agents and developing better delivery systems.

[00:34:31] And remember, the Madgastron-Virginia incidents are reported in 1933 and the Illinois incidents

[00:34:38] in 1944, both occurring long after the military is in full swing in studying chemicals and how

[00:34:44] to deliver them.

[00:34:44] We can also see that once the U.S. enters World War II in 1941, the military very quickly

[00:34:50] boosts its infrastructure by building numerous chemical munitions plants, testing grounds,

[00:34:55] and defense equipment production plants all over the country.

[00:34:59] We also know for a fact that even after the end of World War II, that the interest in chemicals

[00:35:04] and how chemicals may be used in open warfare as well as espionage only increased due to the

[00:35:10] Cold War.

[00:35:11] There was actually a 1951 CIA memo that lists multiple questions for the U.S. scientists

[00:35:17] to ask their German and Japanese counterparts, such as, quote, how can drugs be best concealed

[00:35:23] in a normal or commonplace item, such as candy, cigarettes, liquor, wines, coffee, teas, beer,

[00:35:30] gum, water, common medicines, Coke, and even toothpaste.

[00:35:34] Even more interesting is a memo from early 1955, written by the head of the CIA's poison and

[00:35:42] mind control program, Sidney Gottlieb, that shows further interest in researching substances

[00:35:46] and materials that, quote, will produce the signs and symptoms of recognized diseases in

[00:35:52] a reversible way so that they may be used for malingering, etc. Substances which produce physical

[00:35:58] disablement, such as paralysis of the legs, acute anemia, etc. Substances which will promote

[00:36:04] weakness or distortion of the eyesight or hearing faculties, preferably without permanent effects.

[00:36:10] A knockout pill, which can be surreptitiously administered in drinks, food, cigarettes, as

[00:36:17] an aerosol, etc., which will be safe to use, provide a maximum of amnesia, and be suitable

[00:36:23] for use by agent types on an ad hoc basis. The CIA even had a manual that walked agents

[00:36:30] through how to administer poisons without detection, including how to best use the advancing aerosol

[00:36:36] technology. So if we know for an absolute fact that not only was the government already working on

[00:36:42] chemicals and ways to deliver chemicals as far back as World War I, and the fact that we know for certain

[00:36:47] that the U.S. government experimented on unwitting citizens on numerous occasions, both on an individual

[00:36:53] basis and entire populations, would it be a stretch to think that the incidents of 33 and 44 could have

[00:36:59] been part of a larger government study? In conclusion, the Mad Gasser incidents of Botetourt County

[00:37:05] and Mattoon remain shrouded in mystery. While mass hysteria offers a plausible explanation,

[00:37:10] the context of World War II and documented government experiments suggest alternative possibilities.

[00:37:16] These events reflect the era's paranoia and the complex interplay between the societal fears

[00:37:22] and government actions. Further research into declassified documents and historical records may shed light

[00:37:28] on these enigmatic occurrences. So in the end, was it a case of mass hysteria? I think it's relatively safe

[00:37:35] to say that many of the later reports were due to public panic spurred on by the reports in the local

[00:37:40] media. But that doesn't quite explain the original reports and the very real physical effects they were

[00:37:46] treated for. My personal feeling is that in both cases, the Mad Gasser incidents in both 1933 and 1944

[00:37:53] likely had a basis in some very real attacks, followed by many more false reports in the days and weeks after.

[00:38:01] So if there was a real Mad Gasser, who was it and what was the motive? For me, the fact that both incidents

[00:38:07] occurred during a time when there was a heightened amount of general anxiety due to two world wars and a desire

[00:38:13] to stay one step ahead of our enemies when it came to a relatively new weapon of war may be part of the answer.

[00:38:21] Thanks for listening to From the Void. Hopefully you enjoyed this mystery. We'll be back with an all new one

[00:38:25] next week. Until then, rate, review and subscribe and don't forget to tell a friend. And until then, I've been

[00:38:32] your host, John Williamson, and this has been From the Void.