(Mystery) Keith McCloskey ”The Dyatlov Pass Incident” pt 2

[00:00:02] [SPEAKER_01]: From the darkest reaches of space to the deepest corners of your mind

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to from the void

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to part two of my conversation with author Keith McCloskey on his book mountain of the dead the Dyatlov Pass incident

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_00]: If you haven't heard part one yet pause here and go back and listen to last week's episode first so that you

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Understand what's going on if you've already heard it then welcome back to part two

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: This week's mystery the Dyatlov Pass incident part two on from the void

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I remember reading that and I thought that's very very odd because as you said slashing array of the tent

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: You would think that something you know that would constitute that level of emergency that they would be sprinting off

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: In a different direction, but they were able to to look at and examine the footprints leaving the tent

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was definitely not the case. So that's obviously the first sort of puzzling piece to the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: The other old thing you see when you come to the avalanche theory

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't believe it was an avalanche because when you look at the the ridge where where

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_01]: The just what the tent was just below the ridge. There was this very strong winds

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: For a large part of the year coming from the west

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Over the ridge and that would blow a lot of the snow away

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So there wouldn't have been that heavier buildup of snow there anyway at the top

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, there'd be a little bit more built up the further down you went nearer the tent

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: but I don't think enough to cause an avalanche, but

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: even if you say there was an avalanche and

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_01]: When we get when we start talking about the injuries to some of them

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: The the the theory is that the avalanche caused some of the injuries the cracked ribs to Zolotariev and

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Lou the the girl Luda

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_01]: They it's it's estimated that they wouldn't have lasted more than

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_01]: 30 minutes with injuries like that such severe injuries

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But the footsteps they would have needed to have been helped

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But the footsteps showed that they were all walking individually

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So you know you you cannot believe that two people with crushed

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Chests who probably got less than 30 minutes to live were able to walk just normally away from it

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I can't imagine and hopefully I'll never get a crushed chest

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But I would think that I'd probably want to flop down on the floor

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: with a major injury like that

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's what that's one of the other curious

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_00]: pieces of evidence is as you mentioned the the

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: There's the first sort of first half of the group who are found

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: stripped of most of their clothing who

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_00]: It shows that died of hypothermia and then you've got

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_00]: The the latter half of the group were found later who have these sort of strange internal injuries without external markings

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Yeah, I mean

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like it's like there's two lots of they died in two separate ways almost

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_01]: you know is what it looks like you run into another theory of

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Where where they have the snow shelter where they built the snow shelter in in the ravine?

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a buildup of snow above them and that caused some of the injuries but

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I don't really think that that's the case

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: although that when you see the pictures of where they dug out the

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_01]: The actual ravine itself. I mean I've stood at that ravine and it's not that deep

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It's deep enough. I suppose but you think well, I

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't believe that there was a been enough snow there to completely crush

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: You know two of them and cause

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: strange other

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Fractures to the rest of them, you know

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: None of it adds up. That's the thing and I

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: also wonder that why

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: If they had those injured if those injuries were caused later

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I often wonder why there was no way of seeming interaction if you like between

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: You know the ones that had died

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And the ones that were in this it could be that obviously they stripped the bodies of the two that died and thought well

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Just wait the snow shelter, but I wouldn't have expected all four of them to just stay in there

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know that at some point that one of them probably would have had to try and make a you know

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Go go and see if they could get back to the tent because even staying in the snow shelter

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: There's no heat that there's no food or anything

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So your time there is probably going to be what a best 12 12 hours and that cold if you're lucky

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're managing to try and keep warm with the others but a lot of it adds up at all it really doesn't

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_00]: One thing I've failed to mention earlier is the fact that you know what the time of year that they went was you know

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_00]: We're talking February and so this is like that

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Probably one of the I would imagine one of the more coldness. Yeah. Yeah

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: well, I you know as I

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Understand they were testing their skills and all the rest of it but

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: As I say

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a story that just never adds up at all where why they behaved like they did

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Irrespective of what happened to them

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, as I say you can go through every theory. There's the theories about the the Yeti

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Another theory is that the local Mansi tribe were responsible and that's got some

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Basis to it because everybody thinks so the Mansi were helping them in the search of their all good people. Well

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_01]: If you look back into the history of the Mansi if you go back

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: No, not just the Mansi but all these indigenous tribes that lived in the north and the far east

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: They were viewed really officially as savages to be brought into the communist fold and

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Educated there's any number of stories about how they were ill treated really

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_01]: That they were given some help in but it was help of a kind of you know

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: If you don't like it will make you sort of sort of attitude and and the Mansi the Mansi themselves were

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Almost spiritual people that they worshipped the natural world and the basically what the Soviets were doing was

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Trampling all over their natural world by you know that they were

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Mining and

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Apparently there's talk that when the nuclear weapons moratorium came in the the

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Soviets shifted it up to the northern Urals

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: That's another theory but here's the Mansi land which they worship and you've got all these people coming in and trampling all

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Looking for oil blow up blowing up nuclear weapons and storing nuclear warheads

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't imagine that the Mansi were all that crazy about their

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: about their their newcomer newcomer friends as it were and

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was just going to say the position of the female in in Mansi society

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Was lesser than that of a male there were many areas that females couldn't go

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: The river that for instance the river loss for

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Which they would have been following for part of the route

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Parts of that were not allowed to be walked on by not the river but the river bank

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Where females were not meant to walk?

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Beside it because it was supposed to be full of water spirits. And of course, you've got two famous females in the group who

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You know were were doing just that

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: There's this talk that the mountain itself is sacred but there's but there's been quite a few people who've refuted that

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I've talked to a Mansi

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: scholar in

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Eastern Europe who said that what his research showed is is that the mountain there are sacred mountains where

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Females weren't allowed to go but that wasn't one of them. But nonetheless they were in a

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Area that were parts of it were considered sacred and females weren't supposed to be there and

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: That probably would have upset them as well. One thing about the Mansi is they know everything that's going on in their area

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Who's in it? And even though it's

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a wilderness, but they but they they know

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Everything that's going on. However, they don't but while we were there the local

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the Mansi elders came up to see us so he obviously knew we'd arrived as it were so

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_01]: They would have known that there were two females there without any doubt

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And I and as you said that was one of the the original theory. So talk a little bit about

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_00]: law enforcement's investigation into this and and what do they initially suspect because

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You know one thing that we can discuss here is of the evidence left behind

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously there's the you know the bodies and in the tent the shape of the tent

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But they also kept, you know, largely kept some journals and there's some photography that you know

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: They were taking pictures along the way so they can kind of piece some things together. So what initially do they think?

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_00]: What is sort of their initial reaction?

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: One main thing about it all is whatever was happening that night

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_01]: There was something going on in the night sky because there's several photographs of

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: What appeared to be lights in the sky and it isn't just the foot you could say well, that's just

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You know exposure or whatever, but there's far too many witnesses of

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: not just that particular night, but

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Over a long time period of people as far far away as if dil which is what 80 odd miles away

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: seen things happening in the in the night sky

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of some of the things some of the lights were seemed to separate from each other and people have said well these sound like

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: boosters for rockets falling away, which is possible

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I've spoken to

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: somebody who's

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: an expert in that field

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Who said to me that

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: some of the photos show what appears to be a

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of like a drone coming toward although there were very early drones in those days

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: but like a drone coming towards it over a

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: timeframe of about three

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: three actual

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Negatives and he said if you take the you know, they had a pulse Doppler effect. That's quite possible

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: so it could be rockets, but

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, how you know and again, I'm I favor the military

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Theory of some kind but how can you say that a rocket caused all their deaths?

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You know even if a rocket came down, you know

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: It didn't land on top of them. Otherwise it would have crushed them all or they'd be covered in

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Fuel oil or burned to death or whatever, but there's no evidence of that

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So the but but you can't get away from the fact that there's something going on in the night sky

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So what was it? That's that's one of the questions

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what are the theories I read at one point was something

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Along the lines of some sort of testing that the military was doing starting

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_00]: explosives attached to parachutes and and

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_00]: You know as you as you said that sort of explains maybe why they would initially leave the tent and why some of them

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: May die of exposure, but it certainly doesn't explain the level of injuries that the other part of the group

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01]: You know experienced well, you know, but it does yeah, I mean

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: The the injuries that crushed chest injuries to two of them

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It's been said that they're similar to blast injuries because there's no marks on them

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: There were no marks outer marks. It's just like that. They'd be it was like a car crash, but without any external

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: marks on the chest

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think levy van of agreed

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_01]: He was one of the lead investigator on it that it was similar to a blast injury

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But then if it was a blast injury why why not all of them? Why why just two of them?

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Affected in the same way with the crushed ribs

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: You know a blast surely would have hit all of them if it was that severe

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_01]: You know

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But again, you start going around in circles and saying well

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they were the two closest to a blast or whatever what I did think about it though

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Just look at thinking of it from my own point of view is that if I'd been in that tent and suddenly I heard

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Loud noises of you know some kind of military operation. I would start thinking what the hell

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I thought we were the only people up here have we landed in the middle of a military exercise with live weaponry?

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And you probably would slash away out of the tent especially if there was explosions going on

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But like I say it is still you know, I think if it been

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Say two or three explosions that scared them enough to slash the way out of the tent and then everything went quiet

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_01]: You know that would explain the walking down fairly fast to the tree line because at least in the trees you'd be well

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You'd be safer than you know from a blast then you would be up in the open up on on on the ridge

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_01]: so

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: They were partially explained it but again, it doesn't it doesn't answer the injuries

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You know it doesn't answer all the injuries

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean one of them had a fractured skull, but the the the fracture was behind his ear

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, how would that be caused by a large?

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: You know all encompassing blast

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. Yeah, and and it was determined to not be a fatal

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: All the injuries are very you know that you get on to the some of them were missing eyeballs and Luda was

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Missing her tongue

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: It just says the tongue was missing. It doesn't say it was cut out or anything like that

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Ironically enough Luda Luda Luda Miller D'Abonina was

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably the most most outspoken out of all of them

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: very loud and

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: You know probably what you would call a definite

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_01]: feminist if you like for the time

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But she spoke her mind but it just ironically out of all of them she was the one missing her tongue

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, talk a little bit about so as you said some of them were missing

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_00]: certain certain parts and

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Some of that has been attributed to well, you know, the bodies are sitting out exposed for a long time

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It could have been animals like has there been any research done or I know over over time. They also

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: You know there was a it was difficult to get access I should say to some of the the reporting

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and some of that has been released or

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Let out into the the public domain over the years. What do we know, you know?

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what do we know about that? Well, basically the business about the missing tongue

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Or you know the missing eyes as well and the rest of the injuries. I mean

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_01]: the eyes

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of just

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the word that they lose their?

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_01]: the

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Road say rigidity if you like, but they they shrink, you know because of a lack of fluid and

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_01]: There's talk that animals and bacteria

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: had eaten it away as well because by the time the bodies were

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: says

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: we're talking more about the four bodies found in the

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Snow shelter, but by the time they were found it was starting to thaw anyway

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you know is it was early May so the the snow was started to fall away

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Animals were coming out of hibernation. Although if there'd been any real animals larger ones a bear probably would have you know

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I had a eat them

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But there was no sign of them being actually

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the word attacked is the word but there was no sign of animal interfere a larger animals

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But possibly birds or you know smaller

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Insects probably

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Would it would have been at them, you know at the eye eyes

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's one explanation for it. But a lot of people like to read into it

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they were missing their eyeballs and they've been done deliberately, you know

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: However, it was done but

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I think it was more due to the passage of time and

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Bacteria and insects that they were responsible for it

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Meludas missing tongue again, they say bacteria possibly or whatever

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's peculiar that she was the only one that was affected that way

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you would think that they would be able to through through autopsy

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Determine whether or not, you know that the kind was tongue was cut or if it was you know

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Deteriorated over time or chewed or whatever, you know, yeah

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: well part of the problem you just mentioned that is the autopsy because they were bodies were taken to the morgue of del and

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You've Kenny Yurokov was levivano senior and he gave an interview and

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_01]: He said that the chief prosecutor there had been present at the morgue

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: for the for the autopsies and

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_01]: he was interviewed by Leonid Proshkin who

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Was quite a big good friend to the Institute. He was a

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_01]: prosecutor himself

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You know a lawyer and

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: He said what he said to him was when the chief prosecutor went up to the

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: To the autopsy he said in your experience has had he ever done that before

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Before then or since then and he said no it was highly unusual

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_01]: For the for him to go there the head honcho basically to be present at the autopsies

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So if he had done that you would say well, why did he feel it necessary to be present?

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: While the autopsy was being done because the other thing that it leads on to is that the clothes were

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: tested for radiation some of the clothes

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Strictly speaking for nine people to be found dead

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Basically on a ski hike if you like

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You would think death by misadventure wouldn't you most people I mean if nine people were found dead up in

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: northern Canada or the Rockies in the middle of winter

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You would think well, you know

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_01]: They took their chances and they all perished and you and you would I don't know what the verdict is in America over

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Here you would say death but in you know in the UK and say death by misadventure

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But yep. Well, so why why would you even think?

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: To test clothes for radiation

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that definitely raises some questions and also just sort of the fact that they sort of locked the case down

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: pretty early

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Sort of anytime that happens. It of course spurs on all sorts of

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_00]: copious amounts of conspiracy theories

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, I mean don't forget though. We're talking about the Soviet Union where

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I Ivan Smith, you know could not walk into the

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Police headquarters and spread loves can say I'd like to see this case file

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It just wasn't something you would do

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean in as I've said this before and interviews that the Moscow telephone directory was a

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: classified document so

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Can I yeah there is the the element of it not being made available but you you know anybody

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: any normal citizen

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Possibly a relative could do it

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe but any normal citizen wanted to go to the police and ask or demand to look at files

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Would attract a lot of unwelcome attention

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, whatever the case was, you know, it would be a case of who do you think you are in those days?

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Everything was a state secret and the mere fact of checking for radiation

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Implies that there's some kind of military background to the whole thing

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So anybody going to say I want to see this file

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Theoretically, you could say well, yes

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You can but I doubt anybody would have the the nerve to do it if he didn't want to be

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of unwelcome attention to himself

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so talk about the initial aftermath obviously in the late 50s early early 60s

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: It's sort of a shut shut case for quite some time. I'm sure the families were not

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: exactly satisfied with

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Again it wasn't a place where you complained, you know, you just had to accept it

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: The thing is

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_01]: the whole business of force and overwhelming compelling force

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_01]: What Yurokov who was Lev Ivanov's boss? He was like the number two in in the department

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01]: He said that he and Ivanov were going to go back up there. They they were looking to get a permit

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_01]: They were going to ask for the help of the military troops to go up and really search the place

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And see what they could find, you know, that might have been missed and the whole case was just shut down completely and

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It was done by the arrival

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, I said the Yurokov

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Gentleman had arrived from Moscow from from the procurator generals office and

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: demanded the case be shut down and he told them to close the case down until

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Say right and say it was an accident and when Leonid Proshkin was interviewing

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll need to get the names right

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to mix it. I'm not I don't speak Russian and I'm often confusing Yurokov and Okyshev

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just make sure do you edit this at all?

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You know a little bit. Yeah, sure

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I think the Okyshev I

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Know was one of the gentlemen that I believe you spoke with when you went

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was it was proche Leonid Proshkin was interviewing him. But you know the

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody arrived from Moscow and shut the whole thing down basically

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Your recover it was his name if I remember it rightly

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But he just said to say it's an accident so

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: He and he apparently according to Okyshev he took the files away with him

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: a

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Lot of people have said all the files were in

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You know in this word loves go blast but that leads me on to what I was just going to say now

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: about the case being shut down because there'd been there'd been a few attempts to close it and in

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_01]: 2018

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yuri Konsevich contacted me and said that

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_01]: He had got together with Leonid Proshkin and they were going to make an application to have the case reopened in Moscow

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Could I help with the fees so I did I raised you know legal fees and fees to be paid

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Over there which I did I helped to raise most of the fees in the West

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And send them over and they did they made an application

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Using one of the relatives to open up the case again to re-examine it and what came back was

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got all the paperwork on it, but what came back was

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't a flat. No what they said was we do not feel that we have the jurisdiction

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_01]: To deal with this it should be dealt with in the spurt loves Oh blast and

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_01]: They refused when it went back to I mean

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't get confused the the swear loves Oh blast is still call that whereas the city's word

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Loves is now your Katerinburg. So it went back to your Katerinburg and

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_01]: They basically refused. They said no, we're not we're not going to reopen it

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And then lo and behold a few months later, it's reopened

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Now they reopened it themselves, but I believe that

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: They reopened it to shut it down for good. So

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: You know

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: With their you know, they had very definite ideas about what they were going to look at

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they said we're not looking at any nonsense about

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Supernatural blah blah blah and all the rest of it. So they reopened it and basically shut it down for good

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And I can tell you another story about it all is the involvement of the KGB

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I cannot believe that the KGB who you know

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: The state security would not have had some involvement in this case

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_01]: because one of the rumors about the group was they were trying to

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: escape

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: out of

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: You know the USSR but it's a strange way to escape, you know, I thought there was a lot of easier ways of escaping

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Climbing up into the northern Ural Mountains. You think well the next stop after that is the Arctic

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So or possibly Norway, but you you've got across God knows how many military zones to even get there

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But the mere fact that that was a rumor would have attracted the attention of the KGB and yet

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: They say the KGB weren't involved in it. So who knows?

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a lot of the a lot of the sort of evidence and sort of some of the open-ended questions there seem seemed to point towards

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Some sort of military involvement

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And so what what are some of the more what you feel would be the more credible?

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Sort of predominant theories behind what happened

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Well

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: To me it's the attitude of the authorities that points to something doing with the government, you know

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_01]: if they were I

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Spoken to Russians over there who say well, it's been a long time

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, why not just come clean with it all and but you know

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not in the Russian nature to open up on things. I everything's a state secret, you know, it seems to be

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But but so much time has passed that if there is

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_01]: closed files on it or

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_01]: People know what's happened. Well, why not just you know say well this this was it was a different time

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It shouldn't have been done and you know have done with it, but that doesn't seem as if that's going to happen

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But but I tend to lean towards the the military myself, but I cannot like everything

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't make the facts fit

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: They were possibly scared out of their tent by some military action going on around them

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It could well be but then you could say well the avalanche theory is just as plausible and

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_01]: The injuries happen to them further down. I mean there's a I've written the forward for a book by

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Henning Kirsten who's a

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Climber and he actually came up with what a theory I did like very much about

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Ball lightning because when you look at he examined the photographs of

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01]: them in the morgue and a lot of the injuries that were that were caused if you look at the arms and

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You know whether the way the veins are the injuries like that are caused by

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: burns from from lightning and

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: He wrote book called

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: The

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Dyatlov incident not a cold case

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it's it's I thought it was quite a plausible theory because ball lightning would actually

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Frighten you you know because he wouldn't know what the hell it was

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And I could imagine not necessarily running away from it because it moves very slowly and that would account for them walking

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Down to the the bottom, you know of the hill

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: so

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a theory are quite light because it gave an explanation of natural phenomena and then death by

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Misadventure if you like they were getting away from it and it did cause some injuries to them

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But they got away from it, but then died of the cold

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's there's any number of theories though, you know, it's yeah

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's it and that one's interesting too because it kind of as you mentioned earlier

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Kind of falls in line with sort of some of these reports

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_00]: From from other groups in the area of seeing sort of like lights in the sky and that sort of thing. Yeah

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it accounts for it partly accounts for lights in the sky as well, you know

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, it doesn't necessarily answer why they would test for

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Radiation on clothes, but but it comes close closer than most

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You know the

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a like I said to you. There's a nuclear

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Warhead area storage area. It's been there since the 90s still there now

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But that is a good bit further south

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just past if del

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and there's there's a lot of

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_01]: nuclear warhead they

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Reprocess them there and they store them so that there's there is nuclear material in the area if you like

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But I still can't see how you know that would get old to close up in up in the you know

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: 80 or 100 well not necessarily 100 but certainly a good 80 miles away. I don't see how it would affect them

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that is very puzzling

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_00]: That's that's really interesting and I also thought was very interesting is

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Some of the information that that you obtained from you know, the 2015 interview with you bit

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yvonne

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Okashev I hopefully pronounce that correctly

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, and just some of the strange discrepancies that that he noticed he was one of the last few remaining living

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_00]: individuals who was first-hand witness to

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_00]: To this event. Yeah

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: He I think he had his finger on the pulse. He knew that there was a lot more to it and

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01]: He

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_01]: He was saying that they you know, he says they were ordered to shut it down

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: He was saying he wanted to go back up with

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Levy van of to have a good search, you know, he was he was approaching the problem the right way

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: He was saying there's obviously more going on here that we don't know about

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go back up and have another look and then suddenly the whole thing's closed down. So, you know, but

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Like people have called it the ramblings of an old man, but you know, he was

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_01]: He was still pretty sharp

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think he he out of all of them came

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Closest to describing what was going on and he mentions the fact about the moratorium on

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Nuclear weapons tested above ground, you know

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_01]: That came into force and the possibility that the Soviets were doing something up in the Urals

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they've moved it away

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was down in Kazakhstan where a lot of the nuclear testing was done

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So to take the suspicion away from it, they start they carried on basically doing up and doing it up in the Urals

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But having said that he obviously couldn't say too much because the one grip that the

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Government over there always had on all these people their government employees. They control their pensions

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So you couldn't you know put yourself out too far

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, very true

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know just sort of finding a good spot in here it obviously fascinating mystery

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_00]: very sort of complex and and every time you you feel like you find a theory that fits it doesn't quite

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_00]: fit in with that puzzle piece if you know what I mean and and so is it can't be sort of frustrating in the

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_00]: sense that

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_00]: There is no clean cut answer. It seems do you think this will ever be solved or is it just too far?

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. No, I if it's left as it is, I don't think it'll ever be sold. I really don't

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_01]: unless

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Nearest thing this would have had a been sold. I've said this before is

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Was after the breakup of the Soviet Union

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Everything was up for sale basically, you know, it was a completely different atmosphere

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: People were able to talk they were able to leave the Soviet Union or what was the you know?

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_01]: The countries were breaking away

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I think if it was ever going to have been

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Got to the bottom of if you like that that would have been the time

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and and when

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It was Russia was being run by Boris Yeltsin and okay

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_01]: He has plenty of critics

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But he seemed to be somebody with a conscience and he had been to the same

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_01]: University that they had been at he

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_01]: UPI and you know the URLs Polytechnic Institute

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_01]: he had been a former student himself, but the way he

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_01]: handled the

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the best way of putting it? You know about the murder of the royal family

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_01]: He allowed all that to come out if you like and

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_01]: To atone for the sin of what happened to them

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think if somebody had approached him and said look can we get to the bottom of what happened to the Dyatlov group?

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I think he probably would have you know pushed for that happen, but it's just gone the other way

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean Russia now it seems to me is as bad as it ever was from the point of view secrets

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_01]: You know it's a it's a in the national psych

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I think they don't need when I was over you know the visits are made people don't talk about the government and

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_01]: You know government policy or anything is a subject to be avoided

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, okay, you can say well. It's not my place to be talking about it anyway, but nobody's willing to

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Engage in conversation and laws have been brought in since you know in the last

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Excuse me 10 or 15 years

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_01]: That make any military subject really as a state secret

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So that I mean you can if you'd been serving I don't know in the infantry and

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Done a couple of few years to the inventory you would be theoretically if you were to talk about it

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Openly or write a book about it you could be you can be taken and took court and in prison

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Revealing state secrets that bad

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a guy who was working on put it in the book on satellites military you know military satellites

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_01]: who'd

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Although it was quite old technology that he'd worked on he applied for a job in in Sweden

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Working in you know told me to upgrade his experience, and he was sent to prison just for a job

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow so it's and I think like I say when you've got that kind of atmosphere

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_01]: People don't want to talk or dig so that's the problem so I

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Just come back to your question. I don't think it'll ever be sold. It won't be solved with

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_01]: That kind of atmosphere, and I think the window where it could have been sold as past

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it sort of feels like if there are people still living who had the answers. They're certainly not talking

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Not only that people who are still living who can remember those days they're dying away now

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're talking about 1959 so anybody who might have been involved in a cover-up from then is

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably long gone or very close to it now. You know

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's you know it's faded into history basically the story

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is certainly a story and a mystery that's sort of up there with like Amelia Earhart in the sense that we may never

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Really know what what really happened to these poor individuals so I

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Appreciate you coming on and sharing this with us for folks listening

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Keith has a great book out there called Mountain of the Dead the Dyatlov past incident go check it out

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Where can people stay up on top of what you're up to and are you working on anything currently? I should ask

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_01]: What I'm hoping to do is

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I want I'm gonna have to visit, but I don't know if you would know about the two Dutch girls that

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_01]: disappeared in Panama in

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_01]: 2013

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Well if you have a look

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Just type into Google

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Two Dutch girls disappeared Panama. It's a very interesting story

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_01]: They disappeared but parts of their bodies were found that's all they ever found and

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to go down there looking at doing it early next year

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And retracing their steps

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, I mean again, there's all sorts of theories about what happened to them

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But they were down there visiting for a holiday. It was kind of a working holiday. They were going to work

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01]: You know learning Spanish and

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Teaching children and all the road, you know working in an orphanage

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and one day they went on a

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Hiking trip on a

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Known nature trail if you like as scenic route

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But instead of turning around when they got to the top of the route they kept on going

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And like the Dyatlov thing they've recovered their cameras. There's all sorts of weird photos

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: The name's Lysanne Froon and Chris Kramer's if you look it up but

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: You know weird photos body parts, you know, it's and again I feel I mean I have three daughters of my own

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an awful thing to happen

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_01]: You know

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But they've never really got to the bottom of what happened to them

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, certainly worth, you know

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_00]: worthy of

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Further investigation if for no other reason to try to help provide more information

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_00]: To the families out there. Yeah

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got a I have a couple of you should go into these things with an open mind

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But I've really looked at the case and I know somebody who's very familiar with it

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And I have well have actually got a theory but which I won't disclose just now

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think for anything like this, you know for me to write a book about

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_01]: The you know the two girls who disappeared in Panama, I think you got to go there

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Go where they went and see what it's like and hopefully not disappear. I mean

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_01]: It's easily done. I mean I

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Nearly did just sorry to digress for a minute

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But I was down in the what's called now the Democratic Republic of the Congo

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: my sister was down there her husband some years back and

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We went to visit a leprosy a place where they were saved as AIDS research and leprosy

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01]: missionary station anyway, we went for a drive and

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_01]: We found what was quite a nice spot and there was a river there and I crossed over

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_01]: There's only a small River across over it and it was quite scenic and I just kept walking and walking and walking and

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_01]: After 30 minutes. I literally realized I didn't know where the hell I was and panic

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You know the sheer

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Panic and fear that I felt because I've taken several forks and I couldn't remember which and I thought it's up in the middle of

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Africa

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_01]: In a country that's falling apart, which it was it was

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Zaire then under president Mobutu and I thought you know I was it was just blind panic

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I remembered fortunately

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a very large trees near where we'd parked and I could see it and all I had to do was make my way

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Back to that. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't be

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Talking to you tonight. I think so. It's getting lost is actually quite an easy thing to do

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's like again, there's also sorts of theories about these two poor girls

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's a story worth looking like I say have a look on Google because their cameras were recovered with a lot of

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_01]: strange photos on them

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Definitely worth it worth a look at yeah

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Be safe and love to have you back on when when when you finish with that project, okay

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much. This is absolutely

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. Yeah

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to this week's episode of from the void. We'll be back soon with a brand new episode and

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Some previews in terms of what we're up to you for the fall

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So until then please consider rating reviewing and subscribing to the show and sharing with a friend

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It helps us get the word out also check out our brand new website

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_00]: WWW.fromthevoidpod.com for all things from the void and previews of that special project that we've been alluding to

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_00]: That we're working on and very excited for for the fall

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So until next time I've been your host John Williamson, and you've been listening to from the void