In this gripping episode of From the Void, host John Williamson delves into the terrifying and fascinating world of alien abductions with author Warren Agius.
This week I welcome back author, Warren Agius! We talk all about his brand new book, "Close Encounters: Exploring the Mysteries of Alien Abductions." Warren is a longtime UFO researcher known for his unbiased approach to factual evidence. He has personally interviewed UFO contactee and best selling author Whitley Strieber as well as the late ufologist Stanton Friedman.
Guest (select) Publications: Evidence of Extraterrestrials: Over 40 Cases Prove Aliens Have Visited Earth; Close Encounters: Exploring the Mysteries of Alien Abductions
Guest Website/Social Media:
X: @warren_agius
Instagram: @warren.agius
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The From the Void Podcast is written, edited, mixed, and produced by John Williamson.
00:00:02 --> 00:00:07 From the darkest reaches of space, to the deepest corners of your mind.
00:00:09 --> 00:00:11 Welcome to From the Void.
00:00:16 --> 00:00:21 There are more than 1.5 million home invasions per year in the United States.
00:00:21 --> 00:00:25 Within that number, there are less than a few hundred that are actual kidnappings.
00:00:25 --> 00:00:29 And even though that number is small, I cannot imagine how terrifying that would be.
00:00:30 --> 00:00:34 One moment, you're fast asleep, and the next, there's a stranger in your home taking you hostage.
00:00:34 --> 00:00:39 It's a violation of your personal space, a shattering of the illusion that your home is a safe place.
00:00:40 --> 00:00:44 That thought is terrifying. Now imagine the invader is something you've never seen before.
00:00:44 --> 00:00:48 Something with technology beyond anything you've ever seen to the extent that
00:00:48 --> 00:00:49 it seems almost like magic.
00:00:50 --> 00:00:54 Something that looks humanish, but there's something off about its proportions, its features.
00:00:54 --> 00:00:58 Too short. The head is a little too large. The eyes are enormous.
00:00:58 --> 00:01:00 The skin is a little too gray.
00:01:00 --> 00:01:04 You're also no longer in your bedroom, but rather in a strange little room with
00:01:04 --> 00:01:07 bright lights and what appears to be medical instruments.
00:01:07 --> 00:01:10 And no matter how hard you try, you cannot move.
00:01:11 --> 00:01:15 This is a thing of nightmares. And yet one study has found that around 1700
00:01:15 --> 00:01:20 or even as many as five to 6% of the general population claim to have had the
00:01:20 --> 00:01:22 same or similar experience.
00:01:22 --> 00:01:27 I know what you're thinking. This sounds absolutely insane. It sounds too improbable
00:01:27 --> 00:01:31 to be true, and yet renowned Harvard psychiatrist John Mack did a study back
00:01:31 --> 00:01:36 in the early 1990s of 200 men and women who reported such experiences.
00:01:36 --> 00:01:40 Though Mack never went as far as to say that these were alien encounters,
00:01:40 --> 00:01:45 he did admit that he was at a loss for answers and that the people studied experienced
00:01:45 --> 00:01:49 something powerful and compelling and that it deserved further study.
00:01:49 --> 00:01:52 For this week's episode, I welcome back author Warren Aegis,
00:01:53 --> 00:01:57 who talks about his brand new book, Close Encounters, exploring the mysteries of alien abductions.
00:01:58 --> 00:02:01 Welcome to this week's mystery, Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind,
00:02:01 --> 00:02:04 Alien Abductions, on From the Void.
00:02:05 --> 00:02:14 Music.
00:02:15 --> 00:02:19 All right, Warren, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks so much for coming back on again.
00:02:19 --> 00:02:23 Thank you for having me, John. It's an absolute pleasure. I really love the show.
00:02:23 --> 00:02:26 Oh, well, thank you so much. Well, really appreciate you coming back on.
00:02:26 --> 00:02:30 First of all, I always recommend your last book to folks who are enthusiastic
00:02:30 --> 00:02:34 about the subject matter, but maybe don't know some of the basics and some of
00:02:34 --> 00:02:36 the better, stronger cases out there.
00:02:37 --> 00:02:42 So absolutely fantastic book. The new one, likewise. And so whereas the first
00:02:42 --> 00:02:50 one sort of like covers like some of the more, I think, solid UFO cases of sightings.
00:02:50 --> 00:02:51 This one goes a little bit deeper.
00:02:51 --> 00:02:56 So what exactly, talk a little bit about what kind of prompted you to write this book. Of course.
00:02:57 --> 00:03:00 First of all, thank you for the kind words. I really appreciate it.
00:03:01 --> 00:03:05 So like you said, the first book, Evidence of Extraterrestrials,
00:03:05 --> 00:03:11 it focuses more on UFO sightings, especially those made by military personnel.
00:03:11 --> 00:03:17 And in that book, I only focus on the most compelling UFO sightings.
00:03:17 --> 00:03:20 And I simply ask the question, are we alone?
00:03:20 --> 00:03:25 So the first book focuses on trying to solve and answer that question,
00:03:25 --> 00:03:26 whether we are alone or not.
00:03:26 --> 00:03:31 And by presenting a number of significant and compelling cases,
00:03:31 --> 00:03:35 the conclusion becomes that we are absolutely not alone. Not only that,
00:03:35 --> 00:03:39 but we are also being visited by these advanced non-human entities.
00:03:40 --> 00:03:46 But then obviously the phenomenon is very complex and the question does not end there.
00:03:46 --> 00:03:52 Then I started asking myself sort of what is the reason behind these visitations?
00:03:53 --> 00:03:57 And as I was writing the first book, I realized that there was a more interesting
00:03:57 --> 00:04:01 phenomenon that I wanted to explore, which is alien abductions.
00:04:01 --> 00:04:04 And that is how the second book sort of came around.
00:04:04 --> 00:04:09 But as I was writing the second book and gathering research and material,
00:04:10 --> 00:04:15 I realized that there are more hoaxes than there are genuine cases.
00:04:15 --> 00:04:21 So in the book, if I cover 15 cases, there's a large portion of cases which
00:04:21 --> 00:04:26 are clearly a hoax. For instance, cases like Billy Meyer and George Adamski,
00:04:26 --> 00:04:29 these are cases which I do not mention in the book.
00:04:30 --> 00:04:35 I wanted the second book, which I named Close Encounters, to focus on the most
00:04:35 --> 00:04:41 compelling and the most convincing alien abduction cases out there.
00:04:41 --> 00:04:48 So, of course, I always say this, but the easiest part about writing a book is actually writing it.
00:04:48 --> 00:04:55 The hard part of it is seeing, gathering the research and finding which cases
00:04:55 --> 00:04:58 are genuine and which cases are compelling.
00:04:58 --> 00:05:04 And that was quite a difficulty because there are so many cases out there which
00:05:04 --> 00:05:10 are clearly a hoax, which are clearly an attempt for the individual to gain fame or money.
00:05:10 --> 00:05:16 Yeah, and not only that, but when you're talking about an abduction versus just
00:05:16 --> 00:05:20 a sighting, oftentimes sightings like you've got cases like the Phoenix Lights,
00:05:21 --> 00:05:24 where you've got hundreds upon hundreds of things. Exactly.
00:05:24 --> 00:05:28 So it becomes more compelling versus an abduction scenario, which is oftentimes
00:05:28 --> 00:05:31 a very individual. Yeah, 100%.
00:05:32 --> 00:05:36 And like you're saying, sometimes, for instance, in the first book,
00:05:36 --> 00:05:39 I note that many UFO sightings, they show up on radar.
00:05:40 --> 00:05:45 And that is data that cannot be disputed. Like, if a UFO shows up on radar,
00:05:45 --> 00:05:48 you cannot say no, it did not, because it's there, right?
00:05:49 --> 00:05:52 But with an alien abduction, like you said, it's very individualistic.
00:05:53 --> 00:05:58 So it is quite challenging to see whether a case is genuine or not.
00:05:59 --> 00:06:04 And as a matter of fact, writing the book, there's like two sides to it,
00:06:04 --> 00:06:06 right? The first part is the storytelling.
00:06:06 --> 00:06:14 And you need to, well, I made sure to write the case in a way that not only is accurate,
00:06:14 --> 00:06:20 and I made sure not to exaggerate any of the details, But I also wanted to make
00:06:20 --> 00:06:24 it engaging and write it in a way that keeps the reader engaged.
00:06:24 --> 00:06:29 But I specifically wrote it in a way not to exaggerate any of the details,
00:06:29 --> 00:06:35 because that immediately would make it a fictional book, and it's a non-fiction book.
00:06:35 --> 00:06:40 But apart from that, the other part of writing the chapter is looking at the
00:06:40 --> 00:06:45 evidence. And that is something that I stress throughout the writing of the book.
00:06:46 --> 00:06:52 Where is the evidence? and that's an absolutely pivotal part and it's an absolutely
00:06:52 --> 00:06:58 important part of deciphering whether an alien abduction case is genuine or not.
00:06:59 --> 00:07:02 Yeah, and that's one of the things I love about your work is your attention
00:07:02 --> 00:07:06 to detail and the fact that you're looking at facts and letting the facts speak
00:07:06 --> 00:07:12 for themselves and you do such a great job of sort of laying out this list of
00:07:12 --> 00:07:17 criteria that are common throughout these abductions And we'll definitely get there.
00:07:18 --> 00:07:21 Before we get there, though, you really do a great job of laying the groundwork
00:07:21 --> 00:07:26 in the introduction where you talked about a couple of different potential implications,
00:07:26 --> 00:07:31 even acknowledging that this could potentially be legitimate.
00:07:31 --> 00:07:35 And so talk about those two different implications that you kind of discussed
00:07:35 --> 00:07:36 in the beginning. Definitely.
00:07:36 --> 00:07:42 So like I said, I view the two books as working in conjunction with each other.
00:07:43 --> 00:07:46 So in the first book, the big question was, are we alone?
00:07:46 --> 00:07:49 And what is the evidence that shows that we are not alone?
00:07:50 --> 00:07:53 And through a series of cases, there's evidence that we are not alone.
00:07:53 --> 00:07:59 But then in the second book, these two premises and these two implications are put forward.
00:07:59 --> 00:08:04 So the first one is, if we're saying that alien abductions happen,
00:08:04 --> 00:08:08 if we're saying that these UFO sightings are real and UFOs are real,
00:08:09 --> 00:08:14 that means that there is an intelligent, conscious,
00:08:14 --> 00:08:18 non-human entity that is visiting our planet.
00:08:18 --> 00:08:24 That is the first implication. by saying that these UFO sightings are,
00:08:24 --> 00:08:28 that means that there is a conscious non-human entity that is visiting our Earth.
00:08:29 --> 00:08:34 Secondly, if we're saying that there is a non-human entity visiting our planet,
00:08:34 --> 00:08:38 that means that interstellar travel is possible.
00:08:38 --> 00:08:43 Otherwise, it would not be extraterrestrial in origin.
00:08:43 --> 00:08:45 So these are the two implications.
00:08:45 --> 00:08:50 And they follow of the simple statement that we are not alone,
00:08:50 --> 00:08:53 and these beings are visiting us.
00:08:53 --> 00:09:00 So to simplify it in a way, if we're saying that aliens exist and UFO sightings are real,
00:09:00 --> 00:09:07 then that automatically implicates that there is an advanced and conscious entity.
00:09:07 --> 00:09:09 That is visiting our planet.
00:09:09 --> 00:09:15 And that, you know, interstellar travel is something which we thought was impossible
00:09:15 --> 00:09:17 is most certainly possible.
00:09:17 --> 00:09:23 Absolutely. So kind of leading into the book, talk about, first of all,
00:09:23 --> 00:09:25 give a brief kind of synopsis of who J.
00:09:25 --> 00:09:30 Allen Hynek was and then ultimately his UFO classification scale.
00:09:30 --> 00:09:35 Yeah, definitely. So J. Allen Hynek, he's one of the most well-known UFO researchers,
00:09:35 --> 00:09:39 but more importantly than that, he's an advisor,
00:09:39 --> 00:09:44 or rather he was an advisor for the Air Force, and he worked on projects such
00:09:44 --> 00:09:48 as Project Blue Books, Project Sign, Project Garage, to name a few.
00:09:48 --> 00:09:54 So he was a really important person out there, especially in the days of Project
00:09:54 --> 00:09:56 Blue Book and Project Sign.
00:09:56 --> 00:10:00 He's also an important individual because he was a complete skeptic at first.
00:10:00 --> 00:10:04 So he did not approach the subject with any biases.
00:10:05 --> 00:10:11 And I feel like that's very important to approach the phenomenon with a skeptical eye.
00:10:11 --> 00:10:17 And, you know, in his research, he put forward a scale.
00:10:18 --> 00:10:23 And this is known as the high-neck UFO classification scale. And what this is, is that.
00:10:23 --> 00:10:28 Outlines the different levels of UFO sightings.
00:10:28 --> 00:10:37 And the higher you go on the scale, the closer you get to the aircraft and to the occupants.
00:10:37 --> 00:10:42 So for instance, if we look at the first level, the first level is known as nocturnal lights.
00:10:42 --> 00:10:47 And it's simply described as an individual seeing bright lights in the sky.
00:10:47 --> 00:10:52 There isn't any detail apart from the fact that you're seeing unidentified bright lights in the sky.
00:10:52 --> 00:11:00 The second level is known as the daylight disks. And this is where the detail starts increasing.
00:11:01 --> 00:11:06 For instance, in this level, this involves reports which are made in the daytime
00:11:06 --> 00:11:10 and the individual reports seeing a disk-shaped aircraft.
00:11:11 --> 00:11:14 So we're already seeing the detail slowly increasing.
00:11:14 --> 00:11:18 And this is followed by the third level, which is the radar visual level.
00:11:19 --> 00:11:23 And this is when there is a visual as well as a radar sighting.
00:11:23 --> 00:11:29 This means that the individual is seeing a UFO, an unidentified aircraft,
00:11:29 --> 00:11:32 and this same aircraft is showing up on radar.
00:11:32 --> 00:11:37 And from the third level onwards, there is greater detail.
00:11:37 --> 00:11:41 But what is important is that when an aircraft shows up on radar,
00:11:41 --> 00:11:46 then that means the case immediately becomes more significant,
00:11:46 --> 00:11:49 it immediately becomes more compelling and convincing.
00:11:50 --> 00:11:54 This brings us to the fourth level which is close encounter of the first kind
00:11:54 --> 00:11:59 and this is where the individual's UFO sighting is in close proximity to the
00:11:59 --> 00:12:05 point that the individual can describe the aircraft in greater detail and many
00:12:05 --> 00:12:09 times the aircraft is described as being disc-shaped with a dome structure on top,
00:12:09 --> 00:12:13 silver in color with these equidistant portholes,
00:12:13 --> 00:12:17 some even described lights being emitted from the disc.
00:12:18 --> 00:12:22 And then in the fifth level, which is close encounters of the second kind,
00:12:23 --> 00:12:29 is where I start the cases included in the fifth level is the cases I start describing in the book.
00:12:29 --> 00:12:34 And the reason being is that close encounters of the second kind include cases
00:12:34 --> 00:12:39 where the individual is in such close proximity that they experience immediate
00:12:39 --> 00:12:41 and intermediate after effects.
00:12:42 --> 00:12:48 What this means is that the individual starts experiencing ailments because of their encounter.
00:12:49 --> 00:12:53 And throughout the chapters of the book, I described how the individual who
00:12:53 --> 00:12:59 experiences this close encounter, they not only experience physiological symptoms,
00:12:59 --> 00:13:02 but also psychological symptoms.
00:13:02 --> 00:13:07 And interestingly enough, the DIA published a paper not that long ago,
00:13:08 --> 00:13:14 exploring the immediate intermediate after effects which military personnel
00:13:14 --> 00:13:18 experienced when they were out on duty and they experienced a UFO.
00:13:19 --> 00:13:25 But going back to the Hynek scale, level six includes Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
00:13:25 --> 00:13:29 And this is probably where people start thinking about the movie of the same name.
00:13:30 --> 00:13:35 And Close Encounters of the Third Kind is where the individual is in close proximity,
00:13:35 --> 00:13:37 but they also witness an occupant.
00:13:38 --> 00:13:42 Now, throughout the book and throughout this podcast, I'll be using some terms interchangeably.
00:13:42 --> 00:13:48 For instance, occupant, I will also use the term non-human entity and also alien.
00:13:48 --> 00:13:52 But I try to refrain from using the latter word.
00:13:53 --> 00:13:56 So as I was saying, close encounters of the third kind is when the individual
00:13:56 --> 00:14:02 sees a UFO and they're in such close proximity that they see the occupant.
00:14:03 --> 00:14:07 But at this point, there isn't an abduction. That is where close encounters
00:14:07 --> 00:14:09 of the fourth kind come in.
00:14:09 --> 00:14:14 And close encounters of the fourth kind is when the individual is abducted by
00:14:14 --> 00:14:16 this extraterrestrial entity.
00:14:17 --> 00:14:21 So if i had to sort of summarize it
00:14:21 --> 00:14:24 in the first book which focuses on ufo sightings i
00:14:24 --> 00:14:27 mostly cover from level one until
00:14:27 --> 00:14:31 the fifth level i include a
00:14:31 --> 00:14:35 few cases of close encounters of the third kind but this book the second book
00:14:35 --> 00:14:41 close encounters i focus extensively on alien abductions and close encounters
00:14:41 --> 00:14:46 of the third kind yeah and you mentioned you just mentioned the fact that you
00:14:46 --> 00:14:49 do cover a couple of the Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
00:14:49 --> 00:14:53 And I don't want to dig into all of them because I want folks to go ahead and
00:14:53 --> 00:14:54 grab the book because it's amazing.
00:14:54 --> 00:14:58 But I do think it's important to touch on one in particular that I always found
00:14:58 --> 00:15:00 fascinating because, and by
00:15:00 --> 00:15:03 the way, again, you did an amazing job of this in the first book as well,
00:15:04 --> 00:15:09 where I think you and I both probably would agree that instances where there
00:15:09 --> 00:15:16 are either sightings or experiences that occur where the witness is of a particular background.
00:15:17 --> 00:15:23 Whether it be military background or law enforcement or airline pilots,
00:15:23 --> 00:15:27 people who are trained to know the difference between them. Exactly, exactly, exactly.
00:15:27 --> 00:15:31 Yeah, are always incredibly compelling. So talk a little bit about the Socorro landing.
00:15:32 --> 00:15:36 When did this occur and where and why was this event such a big deal based on
00:15:36 --> 00:15:37 who the witness was and what he did? Exactly.
00:15:38 --> 00:15:42 And that's spot on. Like you're saying, when an individual has a certain background,
00:15:42 --> 00:15:44 it immediately makes the case more compelling.
00:15:44 --> 00:15:49 And the reason being is that individuals who work in law enforcement or they're
00:15:49 --> 00:15:55 pilots or they work with the Air Force, they are specifically trained to be great observers.
00:15:56 --> 00:16:02 So, for instance, if I, an individual who is not trained in observing,
00:16:03 --> 00:16:08 if I have a UFO sighting and I compare that to a police officer who has a UFO
00:16:08 --> 00:16:12 sighting, the police officer's UFO sighting is immediately deemed more credible
00:16:12 --> 00:16:16 because they are trained in being great observers.
00:16:17 --> 00:16:21 And now we'll be talking a little bit about the Socorro incident.
00:16:21 --> 00:16:28 This case took place in New Mexico back in 1964 by an individual named Lonnie Zamora.
00:16:28 --> 00:16:34 And as we're saying, Lonnie Zamora was a sergeant police officer and he was
00:16:34 --> 00:16:35 a very reputable individual.
00:16:36 --> 00:16:43 As a matter of fact, his great reputation is what made this case so compelling and so convincing.
00:16:43 --> 00:16:50 What happened was, it was 24th of April, 1964, and Zamora was out on duty.
00:16:51 --> 00:16:54 He was chasing a police car, a reckless driver.
00:16:54 --> 00:17:01 But suddenly, as he was driving, he saw this bright flame coming from a dynamite shack.
00:17:01 --> 00:17:05 And obviously, since there was a large flame coming from a dynamite shack,
00:17:05 --> 00:17:08 he thought that an explosion had taken place.
00:17:09 --> 00:17:13 As a matter of fact, just before he saw the bright flame, he heard a loud explosion.
00:17:14 --> 00:17:19 So he thought, okay, there was an explosion. So he started driving towards that direction.
00:17:20 --> 00:17:26 The case gets more interesting. As he gets closer, he sees this silver object.
00:17:27 --> 00:17:32 And at no point thus far does he think that it's a UFO. Oh, he simply thinks
00:17:32 --> 00:17:35 that the car overturned, hence the silver object.
00:17:35 --> 00:17:42 And he also saw two beings next to the silver object, which he thought were
00:17:42 --> 00:17:44 the driver and the passenger.
00:17:45 --> 00:17:49 So he started driving closer to their direction to help them.
00:17:49 --> 00:17:57 But as he got closer, he realized that this was not a car and those were certainly not human beings.
00:17:58 --> 00:18:06 What I mean by that is that as he drove closer, he saw an oval-shaped aircraft resting on the ground.
00:18:06 --> 00:18:09 And on the surface was this red insignia.
00:18:10 --> 00:18:13 And it's always difficult to describe what this insignia looked like,
00:18:13 --> 00:18:20 but the best I can describe it is it's like an inverted letter V with three
00:18:20 --> 00:18:21 lines running across it.
00:18:22 --> 00:18:26 And for the listeners out there, I encourage them to Google Lonnie Zamora UFO.
00:18:27 --> 00:18:30 To sort of see what I'm talking about.
00:18:30 --> 00:18:36 So there's this oval-shaped aircraft, which is most definitely not a vehicle,
00:18:36 --> 00:18:41 and it's most definitely not a helicopter because it does not have any rotors.
00:18:41 --> 00:18:46 What's interesting is that the two individuals he saw beside it,
00:18:46 --> 00:18:49 he described them as being small adults.
00:18:49 --> 00:18:53 And at one point, they were unaware of his presence, but at one point,
00:18:53 --> 00:19:00 when they do see him, they become sort of startled and as they become startled
00:19:00 --> 00:19:05 they dash in this aircraft this oval shaped aircraft and it starts hovering
00:19:05 --> 00:19:10 once again at this point Lonnie Zamora he starts hearing this,
00:19:10 --> 00:19:15 frequency which is getting more intense and he's also seeing this massive flame
00:19:15 --> 00:19:19 coming from beneath the aircraft and he assumes that there's going to be an
00:19:19 --> 00:19:23 explosion at any point so he starts running back to his vehicle,
00:19:24 --> 00:19:26 but he trips on the floor.
00:19:26 --> 00:19:34 And as he looks out and he sees this aircraft hovering, it disappears almost instantly.
00:19:36 --> 00:19:41 So the sighting lasted a couple of minutes. And then he goes back to his vehicle.
00:19:41 --> 00:19:43 He calls his colleagues.
00:19:44 --> 00:19:50 And they go by the dynamite shack, and they immediately see depressions on the ground.
00:19:51 --> 00:19:56 And inside these depressions, they see burned grass. From there on,
00:19:56 --> 00:19:58 they immediately make a report.
00:19:59 --> 00:20:04 And that same afternoon, an FBI agent visits the landing site,
00:20:04 --> 00:20:10 and he interviews Zamora and he immediately states that Zamora is a reputable
00:20:10 --> 00:20:14 individual and that he had no intention of creating such a story.
00:20:15 --> 00:20:19 He was also completely sober at the time of the incident, so you cannot say
00:20:19 --> 00:20:22 that he was under the influence of any substance.
00:20:22 --> 00:20:27 And the officer, he examines the landing site and he sees these depressions
00:20:27 --> 00:20:32 and they were a couple of inches deep and a couple of inches wide and they were
00:20:32 --> 00:20:34 also equidistant from each other.
00:20:35 --> 00:20:42 And then the report gets forwarded to Project Blue Book and the first explanation
00:20:42 --> 00:20:46 they think of is, could this have been a helicopter?
00:20:46 --> 00:20:51 But it could not have been a helicopter, obviously, because the description
00:20:51 --> 00:20:53 did not match that of a helicopter at all.
00:20:54 --> 00:20:59 Most obviously that there were no rotors on it. Apart from that,
00:20:59 --> 00:21:04 they also checked with the Air Force bases nearby, and they confirmed with their
00:21:04 --> 00:21:08 radar that there were no helicopters in the area.
00:21:08 --> 00:21:13 The next possibility was that could this have been a lunar surveyor?
00:21:14 --> 00:21:18 And the Lunar Surveyor, for the listeners out there, basically have to keep
00:21:18 --> 00:21:24 in mind that the sighting took place back when they were sort of exploring the moon landings.
00:21:24 --> 00:21:31 So there was this aircraft known as the Lunar Surveyor, and it was practically
00:21:31 --> 00:21:37 used to practice safely landing on the surface of the moon.
00:21:38 --> 00:21:44 But they also confirmed the Air Force basis, and they confirmed that it was not the Lunar Surveyor.
00:21:44 --> 00:21:49 This leaves us with the other possibilities that could this have been a hoax?
00:21:50 --> 00:21:55 But both the FBI, both the Air Force, knew that Lonnie Zamora was a reputable
00:21:55 --> 00:22:00 individual, that he had no intentions of creating a hoax,
00:22:00 --> 00:22:04 and he was not known to be into the UFO phenomenon, so there were absolutely
00:22:04 --> 00:22:07 no reasons as to why he would create a hoax.
00:22:08 --> 00:22:13 This leaves us with the only conclusion, the only hypothesis left,
00:22:13 --> 00:22:16 which is the extraterrestrial hypothesis.
00:22:16 --> 00:22:23 And in the book I pose the question, is it possible that what Lonnie Zamora described is the truth?
00:22:23 --> 00:22:31 And is it possible that he did indeed saw a UFO and the two small human beings
00:22:31 --> 00:22:38 he saw and the occupants of the oval-shaped aircraft were extraterrestrial in origin.
00:22:39 --> 00:22:43 And this case is one of the few cases,
00:22:44 --> 00:22:51 it's one of the 700 cases, which not even Project Blue Book could say it was
00:22:51 --> 00:22:55 a weather balloon or it was a natural weather phenomenon.
00:22:55 --> 00:23:01 No, Project Blue Book concluded that they had no idea what the aircraft was.
00:23:01 --> 00:23:04 They had no idea who the occupants were.
00:23:04 --> 00:23:11 And for this reason, the case is still unresolved. And Project Blue Book actually
00:23:11 --> 00:23:17 stated in their report that this is the best documented case they had on the record.
00:23:18 --> 00:23:24 Yeah, absolutely. And to your point, it's not the typical scenario where someone
00:23:24 --> 00:23:29 cites a UFO miles in the distance and gets sort of a blurry photo.
00:23:29 --> 00:23:33 It's a situation where someone's in very close proximity and can make out fine
00:23:33 --> 00:23:35 details, which makes it so interesting.
00:23:36 --> 00:23:37 Indeed. And here we have a sergeant
00:23:37 --> 00:23:44 police officer who has no reason as to why he should create a hoax.
00:23:44 --> 00:23:50 For instance, later in the book, I write about Travis Walton and Whiteley Schreiber.
00:23:50 --> 00:23:54 And these are two individuals who I obviously respect a lot and I respect their
00:23:54 --> 00:24:00 story, but you could see how they could potentially have a reason as to why.
00:24:01 --> 00:24:06 They could create a hoax but you know lonie zamora certainly did not have any reasons why,
00:24:07 --> 00:24:11 you know he could come up with a story he had nothing to gain from it and apart
00:24:11 --> 00:24:15 from that he did not gain anything from it at all as a matter of fact there's
00:24:15 --> 00:24:20 he didn't write any books about it the case is not very well known either so
00:24:20 --> 00:24:23 you know it's it's genuinely one of the cases where,
00:24:23 --> 00:24:29 it is so convincing that i can't see any other hypotheses being credible apart
00:24:29 --> 00:24:31 from the extraterrestrial hypothesis.
00:24:32 --> 00:24:37 Yeah, exactly. One of the other really interesting, so apart from obviously,
00:24:37 --> 00:24:41 you know, where we've talked about, you know, the credibility of witnesses based
00:24:41 --> 00:24:43 on, you know, what they do for a living and that sort of thing.
00:24:43 --> 00:24:47 The other scenario that I find intriguing are the ones where,
00:24:47 --> 00:24:49 you know, as I mentioned earlier, where there's a ton of different witnesses
00:24:49 --> 00:24:53 and something in close proximity.
00:24:53 --> 00:24:55 And one of the ones that you talk about, I think that's really interesting.
00:24:56 --> 00:24:59 And by the way, I want to make the point also that, But being from the U.S.,
00:24:59 --> 00:25:04 we talk a lot about UFO instances within the United States, but a lot of the
00:25:04 --> 00:25:06 ones in your book are from all over the planet. They're happening everywhere.
00:25:07 --> 00:25:12 And one of the interesting ones that you talked about is the aerial school land. Exactly, yeah.
00:25:12 --> 00:25:15 That one's fascinating. Yeah, talk about that a little bit. And as you said,
00:25:15 --> 00:25:23 many people say, why do UFOs only land in the U.S.? But that's not true at all.
00:25:23 --> 00:25:27 The aerial school sighting, it happened in Africa. and
00:25:27 --> 00:25:30 I'll get to that in a minute but I also include a UFO landing which took place
00:25:30 --> 00:25:35 in France so do you know anyone out there who thinks that the phenomenon only
00:25:35 --> 00:25:40 takes place in the United States that's not necessarily true the only reason
00:25:40 --> 00:25:45 that we hear more about it is that there's more publicity there's more resources there,
00:25:46 --> 00:25:50 but going back to the aerial school sighting this is a sighting which has.
00:25:52 --> 00:25:58 62 eyewitnesses it's one of the most compelling, one of the most credible and
00:25:58 --> 00:26:00 fascinating cases out there.
00:26:00 --> 00:26:05 The case took place not that long ago, in 1994, in Ruwa, Zimbabwe.
00:26:06 --> 00:26:11 And for the listeners out there, I'm sure that, you know, when we say Zimbabwe,
00:26:11 --> 00:26:14 people may think that we're talking about individuals who may not necessarily,
00:26:15 --> 00:26:19 have a lot of resources, the children who may not be well-educated,
00:26:19 --> 00:26:21 but that is simply a misconception.
00:26:22 --> 00:26:26 The case took place at Ariel School, which is an independent and private school.
00:26:27 --> 00:26:31 There were children of different cultures and different races.
00:26:32 --> 00:26:34 So it was you know the
00:26:34 --> 00:26:38 children there came from an upper class family
00:26:38 --> 00:26:41 so the case took place in September
00:26:41 --> 00:26:47 of 94 in the middle of September and prior to that there was what is known as
00:26:47 --> 00:26:54 a UFO flap and what that means is that many people report seeing UFOs in the
00:26:54 --> 00:26:59 sky but the case took place on the 16th of September.
00:26:59 --> 00:27:04 It was around 10 o'clock when the children were having their lunch break.
00:27:04 --> 00:27:10 So we had the teachers in the school during their meeting and you had the children outside playing.
00:27:11 --> 00:27:17 At around 10 o'clock in the morning, a few of the children report seeing two
00:27:17 --> 00:27:19 disc-shaped aircrafts.
00:27:19 --> 00:27:25 First, they describe them as being bright lights, but the closer they realize
00:27:25 --> 00:27:27 that there are multiple UFOs.
00:27:28 --> 00:27:31 And when I say multiple, I mean there are more than two.
00:27:33 --> 00:27:40 But what happens is most of the UFOs, all of them, they instantaneously accelerate
00:27:40 --> 00:27:43 away apart from one of the aircraft,
00:27:43 --> 00:27:50 which slowly and silently lands in this field, which is adjacent to the school field.
00:27:51 --> 00:27:56 So basically you have the children playing in the field, and by the school playground
00:27:56 --> 00:27:59 there is this other field where the UFO lands.
00:28:00 --> 00:28:03 A few of the children obviously get they become hesitant
00:28:03 --> 00:28:06 they become wary of the sighting and they
00:28:06 --> 00:28:10 get scared so they run away but then there's also this portion of children who
00:28:10 --> 00:28:16 are intrigued by what they are seeing and and they stay they they see the event
00:28:16 --> 00:28:22 unfold and the incident did not end there at all after the ufo landed many of
00:28:22 --> 00:28:24 the children report seeing to occupants,
00:28:24 --> 00:28:27 to occupants beside the aircraft.
00:28:27 --> 00:28:32 And at first, this is all we know. All we know is that after a few minutes,
00:28:32 --> 00:28:37 these occupants go back into their aircraft and it accelerates out of sight.
00:28:37 --> 00:28:40 So the last thing took place for a few minutes.
00:28:40 --> 00:28:45 And obviously, after an event like this, the children start talking about it.
00:28:45 --> 00:28:46 They mention it to their teachers.
00:28:47 --> 00:28:51 But, you know, children and their imagination, they have a great imagination.
00:28:52 --> 00:28:57 So the teachers just presume that this is simply a byproduct of their imagination.
00:28:58 --> 00:29:02 But what happens is that as the children go home and they start telling their
00:29:02 --> 00:29:06 parents, the parents start inquiring with the teachers and they start telling
00:29:06 --> 00:29:08 them, listen, you know what happened?
00:29:08 --> 00:29:13 And as the word spreads, the story even reaches the BBC.
00:29:14 --> 00:29:20 A reporter known as Tim Leach, he picks up on the story. So on Monday,
00:29:20 --> 00:29:23 Colin, who is the principal.
00:29:25 --> 00:29:29 Actually, let me take a step back. During the weekend, Cynthia Hynde,
00:29:29 --> 00:29:31 who is one of the principal researchers,
00:29:31 --> 00:29:39 UFO principal researchers from MUFON, she speaks to the principal and she tells
00:29:39 --> 00:29:42 him, listen, we're aware that the children saw UFO.
00:29:42 --> 00:29:48 So what you need to do is that you need to gather them in one room and ask them to draw what they saw.
00:29:48 --> 00:29:53 So that's what Colin does. On Monday morning, he gathers the children in one
00:29:53 --> 00:29:56 classroom and he asks them to draw what they had seen the previous Friday.
00:29:57 --> 00:30:01 Because I was writing this book, I looked at these 60 drawings.
00:30:02 --> 00:30:06 There's probably more than 60 drawings, and they're all so fascinating because
00:30:06 --> 00:30:12 they're all so very different, but they also include the same details.
00:30:12 --> 00:30:16 And what that means is that if all 60 drawings were identical,
00:30:16 --> 00:30:19 that means that they were imitating something.
00:30:20 --> 00:30:24 But the fact that they are original drawings and they're different,
00:30:24 --> 00:30:29 that means that the children truly draw, truly drew what they had seen.
00:30:30 --> 00:30:36 So that same Monday, Tim Leach from the BBC, he visits Ariel School and he interviews
00:30:36 --> 00:30:39 three of the children as well as the headmaster.
00:30:39 --> 00:30:44 And the first thing that he asks them is obviously what happened on Friday and
00:30:44 --> 00:30:50 the children tell him that they saw what they describe as people.
00:30:51 --> 00:30:56 One of the children Kaylee, she describes the people as being white.
00:30:57 --> 00:31:02 I'm quoting her here and she says there was a white one, a weird one and a black
00:31:02 --> 00:31:06 one and the black one was sitting on the spaceship end quote.
00:31:06 --> 00:31:14 So she the children immediately thought to themselves that these occupants are
00:31:14 --> 00:31:21 certainly not human beings and the aircraft they saw was certainly not a territorial aircraft.
00:31:22 --> 00:31:24 Otherwise, she would not have used the word spaceship.
00:31:25 --> 00:31:31 And obviously, Leach probes further and he immediately probes and asks them,
00:31:32 --> 00:31:37 why do you think it was a spaceship and not an aircraft? and the children described
00:31:37 --> 00:31:39 the aircraft in great detail.
00:31:39 --> 00:31:43 They described it as being a disc shape and it was silver.
00:31:44 --> 00:31:50 And they also described the occupants. And so that was Tim Leach's interview.
00:31:50 --> 00:31:53 And then after a few weeks.
00:31:54 --> 00:31:58 After a few months, the case actually becomes even more intriguing.
00:31:59 --> 00:32:03 And the reason being is that John Mack, who is a well-renowned psychiatrist,
00:32:04 --> 00:32:08 he visits the school and he interviews a group of children once again.
00:32:09 --> 00:32:11 This time, a new detail emerges.
00:32:12 --> 00:32:18 And the detail being that the occupants telepathically communicated with the children.
00:32:18 --> 00:32:26 And the occupants told the children that we are eradicating tenets' natural
00:32:26 --> 00:32:31 resources and that we must take better care of our planet.
00:32:31 --> 00:32:37 And for the listeners out there, this telepathic message is very common across
00:32:37 --> 00:32:41 the majority of alien abduction cases.
00:32:41 --> 00:32:47 Many abductees report that they received telepathic messages from the beings
00:32:47 --> 00:32:50 telling them that we must take greater care of our planet.
00:32:51 --> 00:32:56 For instance, Wittis Lieber, he stated that he received a telepathic image and
00:32:56 --> 00:32:58 he was seeing natural disasters.
00:32:58 --> 00:33:05 So what the children stated, it lines up with what other abductees described as well.
00:33:06 --> 00:33:10 What is interesting about this case is obviously the fact that there are 62
00:33:10 --> 00:33:17 eyewitnesses. And at the end of the chapter, I bring up my criticism of the case.
00:33:17 --> 00:33:24 And the only criticism I could think of was Cynthia Hines' involvement in the case.
00:33:24 --> 00:33:29 So just a little bit of background, as I stated earlier, Cynthia Hines,
00:33:29 --> 00:33:32 she's a MUFON investigator.
00:33:32 --> 00:33:37 And MUFON is an organization which investigates UFOs, basically.
00:33:37 --> 00:33:42 But what Cynthia Hind did was that she was pretty involved in the case.
00:33:42 --> 00:33:47 But at one point, she even told the children that the case is so big,
00:33:47 --> 00:33:50 so compelling that even America is interested in the case.
00:33:51 --> 00:33:55 So I told myself, if I was a child, if I was in their shoes,
00:33:55 --> 00:34:01 and I heard this stranger telling me that there's people on the other side of
00:34:01 --> 00:34:03 the world interested in the story,
00:34:04 --> 00:34:06 would I exaggerate what I had seen?
00:34:06 --> 00:34:13 But then you know this question also does not hold up for the simple reason that the children.
00:34:14 --> 00:34:17 Described seeing the ufo they described
00:34:17 --> 00:34:24 seeing the alien beings before cynthia was actually involved so the children
00:34:24 --> 00:34:29 gave their description and their statements on monday morning and cynthia met
00:34:29 --> 00:34:34 with the children on tuesday at the following day so so you know my criticism
00:34:34 --> 00:34:37 does not really hold up for that fact.
00:34:37 --> 00:34:42 The other hypothesis I could think of was that, could this have been a prank?
00:34:43 --> 00:34:45 But even if it had been a prank,
00:34:47 --> 00:34:54 It's sort of impossible for anyone, first of all, to have an aircraft which
00:34:54 --> 00:34:57 disappears in a matter of seconds.
00:34:57 --> 00:35:04 Apart from that, it doesn't explain what the occupants were.
00:35:05 --> 00:35:09 And this leaves us with the third hypothesis, which is the extraterrestrial hypothesis.
00:35:10 --> 00:35:13 Could it be the case that the children were being truthful? Could it be the
00:35:13 --> 00:35:17 case that this is not a byproduct of their imagination?
00:35:17 --> 00:35:25 And the reason I believe this case to be genuine is multiple decades later,
00:35:25 --> 00:35:28 their story has not changed at all.
00:35:29 --> 00:35:33 If it had been a prank, if the children had come up with such a story,
00:35:33 --> 00:35:39 I would assume that 20 years later, over 20 years later, someone would come
00:35:39 --> 00:35:42 out and say it did not happen. It was all fake.
00:35:42 --> 00:35:48 But surprisingly, no one did do that. And to this day, their story,
00:35:48 --> 00:35:52 it's still identical to what they said back in 1994.
00:35:52 --> 00:36:00 Music.
00:36:00 --> 00:36:04 Floor thank you for listening to from the void if you enjoyed this episode or
00:36:04 --> 00:36:08 any of the previous episodes please consider rating reviewing and subscribing
00:36:08 --> 00:36:12 and sharing with a friend we'll be back next week week with the conclusion of
00:36:12 --> 00:36:14 my interview with author Warren Ajuice.
00:36:15 --> 00:36:20 So until then, I've been your host, John Williamson, and you've been listening to From the Void.
00:36:21 --> 00:37:53 Music.
00:37:52 --> 00:37:53 .
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